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Civic leaders: Time for Illinois to pass a sensible Tier 2 pensions fix – Chicago Tribune*
Derek Douglas, Joe Ferguson and David Greising: "It can be tempting to write off Illinois’ pension challenges as mind-numbing fiscal issues. But history shows that vigilance is necessary when Springfield lawmakers start talking about pension reforms. If lawmakers make matters worse — as an exorbitant Tier 2 'fix' certainly would do — it would be an expensive step backward that our state cannot afford."
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Details emerging about Chicago Teachers Union’s upcoming contract show just how divorced its demands, both extreme and expensive, are from the reality at Chicago schools. It’s not just about massive salary increases, but also about money for migrant students, climate initiatives, abortions and gender-affirming care. About blocking parental notification. Count on CTU’s demands to veer further from reality until the public finally says no.
Gov. Pritzker’s ‘ethics reform’ eliminates competitive elections and choice for voters – Wirepoints on AM 560 Chicago’s Morning Answer
May 8, 2024
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Ted joined Dan and Amy to talk about a new law passed by the Democratic supermajority and signed by Gov. J.B. Pritzker that results in brazen election interference, keeping Republicans off ballots; about a referendum that tests the waters for a renewed progressive income tax hike; about how the Parental Notification referendum question was knocked off the ballot; and why laws like that pass so easily.
One possible fix would be to put the employees into the Social Security system with a possible 403b type of sweetener. As pointed out by another poster, namely PPF, that would cause the Legislature to lose control over the funds and the State would have to cough up the money when it was due. Now I can easily see that the politicians prefer paying later as it provides them funds for the nice things in life like supporting immigrants, building sports stadiums and all the other goodies they hand out like Halloween candy to the voting public. I can also… Read more »
I believe most, especially teacher, already have access to 403b type plan that they can contribute to on their own…as well as anybody can open a IRA or ROTh IRA or states ROTH IRA
Dumb question/point, the estimated cost of $12 bil to fix Tier 2 pensions to meet only “safe harbor”, in article, is only for state employees?:
Correct.
Sorry, still dumb question but HUGE, when article states the estimated cost of $12 bil to fix Tier 2 pensions to meet only “safe harbor” it states it’s for “three largest state pension plans”? What are the 3 pension plans are they including? It’s my understanding state funds or manages SERS, SURS, JRS, GAR and biggest of all TRS (Teachers Retirement System) & CTPF (Chicago Teachers Pension Fund)? Are TRS & CTPF included in $12 bil figure. Also, obviously, the $12 bil estimate to meet “safe harbor” only is for past Tier 2 employment pension liability between 2011 and 2024.… Read more »
If the state can’t afford the public-sector pension costs, then those pensions are not sensible. Constitution doesn’t guarantee public-sector employees a gold-plated pension that affords a upper-middle class lifestyle. Public-sector employees, paid quite well here in Illinois, particularly in Chicago and its collar-counties, should be compelled to save for their retirements, just as private-sector employees do. Public-sector employees have very little “skin in game” in regards to their retirement planning. That’s a problem. State taxpayers aren’t bottomless source of tax-dollars to pay “salary-equivalent plus inflation bump” public-sector pensions to hundreds of thousand folks. Go read the Illinois pension payments to… Read more »
There is considerable merit to your point of view IF you have no regard nor memory of how we got to this point. To a large degree we got where we are on this issue with our legislators and governors choosing not to prioritize the actuarial level funding of IL public employee pensions, preferring to give higher priority elsewhere while knowing full well that IL has that financial obligation that other issues don’t. That’s where your point of view becomes less persuasive. Maybe your mother wasn’t so authoritative on that matter as mine: if you make a promise you must… Read more »
Politicians make many promises to get into office and many of them occur. But what happens when a politician makes a promise to fund the pensions and then another politician down the road does not live up to the previous politician promise? Edgar via his Ramp changed the previous governors promise-Thompson changed his predecessors funding promise as did Quinn by changing and adding a new system after 2010 and on and on. None of us have any idea what the pols will do once in office but they get to see the behind the scene info not easily accessible or… Read more »
You are correct, and the article has validity, too. Yet, where a particular point of view has been enshrined in the state’s constitution the citizenry at large should expect it to be support by people running that government. In this particular case actuarial funding is not mandated by the constitution while ongoing full pension payments are mandated. That’s almost a sure sign of trouble ahead as surely you will agree. It would appear the assets of the state as a financial entity are at great risk here. I can’t wait for the bidding to start. Do we really need all… Read more »
That’s a noble sentiment. If only it were applied to the implied promise to educate children that teachers give when accepting the job.
There was no such promise. Only the effort was promised. The same holds true for being parent, a doctor, a farmer and even those who drill for oil. As always, the general saying of eons past applies: you pay your money and take your chances.
Not many occupations where you can keep your job for decades, showing dismal results but constantly extolling your own valiant effort. In fact, there are none outside of teaching.
Teachers are performing. Even in CPS, over 97 percent of the teachers are rated proficient or higher. So the people responsible for evaluating teachers disagree with your assessment. Your opinion on the matter is meaningless.
HA!!! This is likely the bottom of the well dumbest statement ever from PPF. Dumber than his denial of massive IL politician bribery by public sector unions making all pensions criminally ill gotten gains and subject to elimination. It borders on parody. Is that you Titania McGrath??
Just spitting nothing but facts TPG. Teachers are performing to their contract.
Almost as bad as your Shylock arguments. But I guess you have to try to bluff with a bad hand since you have nothing else. If you had any real points in your favor, I’m sure you would have already presented them.
Teachers are performing. You have no proof otherwise. If you had any proof they weren’t performing you would present that evidence. You haven’t because you have no such proof.
Well except actual student test scores. Are you really trying to sell the idea that teacher assessments of teachers is the best measure of effectiveness?
Nancy, please rate Joe Biden as President. He’s the best President the US has ever had? Thank you, that certainly is definitive proof of his historical standing. Best ever.
I know you are playing an extremely weak hand, but in that situation it’s best to just fold instead of having your attempts at bluffing exposed.
You can only assign any teacher based upon the range of teacher applicants given your assessment and that of others involved as to their likely effectiveness level compared to the other applicants. Chances are Einstein won’t be among them, and even he were there’s little chance he’d be successful at teaching anyone younger than grad students. “You have to go to war with the forces you have rather than the ones you’d like to have”—an old military truism. Maybe you’d care to be an applicant and help turn that ship around.
Do you mean teachers are graded on a curve, comparing them only to each other and not to Einstein? Fair enough, I don’t expect them to be Einstein either. But this supposed grading on a curve makes it hard to explain how they are all rated at 97% proficient. Some should be average, but apparently not in Teacherland. As for going to war with the forces you have, the reason these are “the forces we have” is that teacher unions make sure that no other forces can be called up to duty. They are entitled to the job after all.… Read more »
Applicants have to meet legal certification requirements. Beyond that its a judgment call by the person(s) assigned to fill the position. I agree that the Bell Curve will apply once any such person is hired. But, if you are taking the position that all teachers will be retained only if they are the top 1o-20% of all such potential applicants nationwide you are talking about a MAJOR recruiting effort and expense for every person both hired and eventually fired when they fail to retain that top evaluation year after year. Most won’t, and unless any such district is extremely wealthy… Read more »
“Do you mean teachers are graded on a curve, comparing them only to each other and not to Einstein?” We’ve uncovered your problem. You seem to want to rate teachers against a mythical person that achieves 100% success. That’s not how the world works. Where are these magical teachers that are prepared and capable of producing better results for these students? Nothing prevents these other teachers that you believe exist somewhere, from taking the job. Are the unions spotting these teachers during the hiring process and preventing them from getting hired? lol The average MLB hitter makes an out 75… Read more »
So anyone can join the cabal that runs the schools? How exactly does that change anything? Feel free to join the group that is destroying schools?
Why choose MLB players for your analogy? One of the only endeavors where failing 70% of the time means you are successful? In the other 99% of the working world, that failure rate means you lose your job.
Did you EVER consider that teaching is maybe harder and more encompassing in skill requirements than most other jobs? “Teaching” means to change another person’s attitudes and behaviors in measurably permanent ways! How many times is anyone really able to do that? Can you honestly say that you are able to do that with anything like a consistently high rate of success? Without some kind of extreme form of reward or punishment that’s not likely going to be the case for most human relationships where a person’s livelihood is not dependent on that relationship such as is the case for… Read more »
James, you are missing the point. It may be true that teaching, like hitting a fastball, is extremely difficult. Maybe only a very few can do it. That’s why MLB is happy to have players that succeed 30% of the time. The difference is that MLB scouts all over the world in search of the player who can hit .300. They hold camps and tryouts, and will sign a player if he shows promise. They have a minor league system where players can prove their ability. MLB knows that there are no potential .500 hitters, because they are constantly looking… Read more »
I don’t get your premise here since you seem to be claiming teachers in general contractually are not able to be “dismissed”. If there is “cause” that can be done, but arbitrary dismissal is hard once tenure is established to create that sense of employment security. If you want tenured teachers to be dismissed upon whim you’ll need to give them sufficient money incentives to take on that risk to their family’s security. Isn’t that the financial reality of what you want from a teacher applicant’s point of view?
I’ll make this easy to understand. We are allowing the dugout full of .125 hitters to tell us it’s their dugout. It’s so hard, nobody could do better.
No we aren’t. Nothing is preventing you or anyone else that has these magical superior teaching skills from applying for the job. The unions don’t hire the teachers just as then baseball players union doesn’t recruit the players. Do you blame the union for the high hitting failure rate in baseball? Yet, somehow you want to blame the union for the failure rate of students.
Sure, if want a given school district to fairly certain at least a beginning teacher is almost certain to be an all-star first year employee you need to pony up the big bucks it’s going to take to find such a person, bring him in for interviews, “spring training” evaluation sessions, seek glowing evaluations from numerous independent interviewers, etc, just as is done in the big leagues of sports. Don’t forget to offer the big bucks as his sign-on bonus knowingly havingto face the yearly firing squad whenever it comes to pass that he’s failed to meet your world-class employment… Read more »
“The difference is that MLB scouts all over the world in search of the player who can hit .300. They hold camps and tryouts, and will sign a player if he shows promise.” We as a society place more value in a guy that can hit a baseball or sink a basket than we do for education. James, has pointed out that if you want teachers to be the elite of our society, it would cost way more money to find these rare magical teachers. You are allowed to look for better players but you are not going to find… Read more »
Sometimes it’s “teachers were smart to accept the pay and benefit package offered. You are just jealous that you didn’t do the same.”
Other times it’s “We need to pay teachers more. Who would want to be a teacher at these pay levels?”
I guess this week we’re on the “we need to pay more” talking point.
Society values baseball players more than teachers boo hoo. Really, you’re going with that?
Teachers are smart for collectively bargaining for competitive wages and benefits including benefits. If you want to attract more people (and more academically elite people) to the teaching profession, you will need to offer up better pay and benefits. I certainly wouldn’t work those conditions for those low wages. Both statements can and are true. I’m sorry you lack basic reasoning and comprehension skills to understand this basic topic. James explained this to your perfectly but you still are plugging your fingers in your ears and refuse to learn. I also never complained about baseball players earning more money but… Read more »
Fifty plus years of union control have produced a school environment so toxic that relatively few want to get involved in it, if they have other options. Paying more to entice people into the toxic mess is not a solution. It would just produce a more costly mess. The simple fact is that public teacher unions as a group have underperformed for years, while earning ever higher salaries and benefits. I’m sure there are individuals within the group who are good at what they do, but the aggregate underperformance is undeniable. That’s why you never try to defend it. We… Read more »
“The simple fact is that public teacher unions as a group have underperformed for years” You have no such proof and can’t provide any proof to this accusation. I have consistently pointed out that they have performed according to their reviews by their employers. 97 percent in CPS proficient or better. You refuse to point to any evidence that they are the problem. You should take your own advice about the mirror and stop whining. You complain about taxes, you complain about unions, you complain about pensions, you complain about voters choosing differently than you…it’s not stop with you. We… Read more »
As expected, no defense of performance. You only point to evaluations by other members as somehow making actual dismal results OK.
“You are what your record says you are.”
Yes. And their record states they are proficient to excellent for 97 percent of the teachers.
As expected, no proof that teachers aren’t performing. No response as to where you are going to find these magical teachers that are so much better. No solutions just illogical blame.
As you well know, that is not their record. It is just their coach’s evaluation. It has zero meaning in the standings or in the real world. Or maybe graduates can tell prospective employers that they can’t read, but 97% of their teachers received an excellent rating. It might make for some conversation as the job seeker is shown the door.
That is their record. You are confusing the students record with the teachers. Is the oncologist a failure if 70 percent of his patients die? No. Worse yet, the hospital system is losing 70 percent of its patients and you want to blame the oncologists for the outcome. When the hospital administration reviews the care provided by each doctor, 97 percent of those doctors are meeting and exceeding expectations but you still want to blame the oncologists. You have no logical explanation for this jump in your conclusions other than your feelings. Teachers are not failures because a certain percentage… Read more »
It’s becoming clear just how the education system got to be the toxic mess it is.
It’s become clear that you can’t refute my points so you have resorted to meaningless comments. You pointed out that no one but teachers can have their outcomes and still be employed. I pointed out your ignorance with several occupations. You blame the results on teachers but yet have provided no evidence that the outcomes are their result. When I point out the school system is happy with their teachers you completely ignore this data point and continue to blame teachers with no evidence. When I ask where are these new magical teachers that can deliver better results, you offer… Read more »
Your example of Nancy would be accurate if CTU leadership were assessing teachers but that’s not the case. They are assessed by their employer. It sounds like you have a problem with their employer. You are not the assessor of teachers.
GREAT COMPARISON….LOVE IT
The proof are the students….. can’t read. etc
If that’s your proof pam, what is your expected outcome? Are you expecting 100 percent of students to achieve goal? 80 percent success of students? You only have proof that a certain percentage of STUDENTS are not meeting goal not whether that is caused by the teachers performance. Where are these magical teachers that can achieve your definition of successful outcomes? Just like my baseball player analogy, you have no idea where to find these unicorns. You have no plan to offer up your services to show us how it’s done. You are no different than the old man in… Read more »
PPF, the solution is to teach these kids to reach. That’s the solution. They aren’t being taught to read or write as their school days are filled up with globohomo grievance studies. They need extra help and they aren’t getting it because the next lesson is ‘climate change’ or ‘some women have p****es too” type nonsense. I regularly link to the 42 other mandated things kids are forcibly indoctrinated with that have little or nothing to do with reading, writing or math. Be you should be really, really careful PPF, with your reasoning here, because you’re veering awfully close to… Read more »
It sounds like your grievance is with our political leaders, school boards, and those running the schools. Teachers are hired to teach the assigned curriculum and they don’t set policy. Those 42 other things are “mandated” as you’ve noted. That mandate doesn’t come from the teachers. I also don’t need to be careful with my reasoning as it’s the truth. Not everyone is going to meet some arbitrary standard around reading and math. Some of this could be caused from their home life, lack of attendance, lack of parental involvement and yes lack of general intelligence. If that offends people,… Read more »
Are you a teacher??????
Performing????????????? Since when???????
Your argument is a bit like saying the immediate soldiers in battle have sole responsibility for whether a battle is won or lost. There are factors beyond their control which often play a decisive role. Teachers cannot control a student’s ability, readiness to be a willing participant nor factors outside the classroom that affect his overall well being and engagement in the bureaucratic regimentation of schooling.
I think you have a point James. A significant number of students have no interest in learning and neither do their parents. I don’t think it accurate to lay it off on poverty as there is a cultural problem. The poverty is often caused by a dearth of values. So let’s look at the situation which is being talked over, so to speak. The average ACT for CTU teachers is 19. On average, they are far from the best. But given the type of students they teach, they need not for the most part be very good. They merely have… Read more »
The state can afford these pensions. The state has vast taxing authority as well as the ability to cut spending in other areas. Plenty of money. If their calculated pension achieves upper middle class status, then the constitution does guarantee them such a lifestyle. Doesn’t matter if that pension is 500k, 100k or 30k. pensions will be paid.
Funding the pensions instead of building a new football stadium perhaps?
You will die of old age before something happens. PPF is 100% right, like it or not.
Go read the Illinois pension payments to retired public-sector employees. Lots and lots of people getting $200,000+ pensions, $100,000+ pensions, all on our dime. Thanks for the reminder, Streeterville. The fact that there are quite a few lavish pensions in the Illinois system should be announced at the beginning, middle, and end of any article or comment thread about the Illinois public pensions debacle. You can’t talk about the problem without considering the benefit levels. To keep saying “the state promised” or “the state didn’t adequately fund pensions” leaves out the crazy dollar cost of many of those “promises”–not to… Read more »
None of that matters. The state incurred the debt and owes payment. Bang on the drum all you want it won’t change one thing.
I’m just saying that the dollar amount of public pension benefits paid today to various retirees, and the cost of those benefits to taxpayers, have to be central to the discussion going forward. The benefit levels offered in future and how they are calculated matter if you want to discuss remediation or replacement of the Tier 2 benefit package with something more “sustainable.” One proposal recounted in this Chicago Tribune article was to bring Tier 2 benefits up to the level of Tier 1! That sounds like something so crazy that only a Springfield lawmaker could propose it. In resolving… Read more »