Another failure of Illinois pensions: “Retired” Illinois superintendent with $230,000 annual pension double dips with $300,000 salary in Texas. – Wirepoints

By: Ted Dabrowski and John Klingner

Opponents of reform can defend the state’s crumbling pension plans all they want, but the systems are riddled with failure. 

The latest example of excess comes from a former Illinois school superintendent – retired with a current $230,000 yearly pension – who is now a superintendent in Texas. He’s an out-of-state double dipper that Illinois taxpayers are forced to pay for. 

Dr. Tom Leonard retired from Barrington CUSD 220 in 2014 at the age of 57 with a $198,000 pension and quickly took a similar superintendent job in Texas. He’s currently earning $300,000 a year in his Texas role, according to this government salary website

Illinoisans pay some of the nation’s highest taxes, including the 2nd-highest property taxes, so Leonard can earn a combined $532,000 a year. 

And not only will his Texas salary grow, but his Illinois pension will continue to grow by 3 percent a year automatically. 

In all, Leonard will receive about $6.4 million in pension benefits from Illinois taxpayers if he lives to be 82, when his annual Illinois pension will have jumped to nearly $370,000 a year. 

And get this: Leonard only contributed a total of $322,000 into the Teachers’ Retirement System over his entire career. Give him credit for 7 percent interest on his employee payments and Leonard’s contributions only amount to $650,000, about 10 percent of what he can expect in payouts. Leonard basically got back the value of his contributions in a little over three years of “retirement.”

He’s far from the only one. Wirepoints has written in the past about how other highly-compensated superintendents are double-dipping with new careers in Illinois and other states.

To be clear, Tom Leonard and other dippers are just doing what the system lets them do. Maybe he feels guilty about drawing a big pension while earning a big salary, maybe not. We don’t blame him for his choices. He’s taking what the state’s morally bankrupt system lets him. Instead, we blame Illinois bureaucrats who do nothing to fix the system.

Gov. Pritzker says we can’t reform pensions: Don’t bother trying, the U.S. Constitution forbids it. He’s flat out wrong, as we recently wrote and expanded on here.

Good news is, we’re finally seeing some new reporting that recognizes the problem. Ben Bradley at WGN just tackled the abuses perpetrated by Illinois leadership themselves to make their pensions even bigger. 

And more recently, Joe Cahill wrote in Crain’s that Illinois’ pension crisis is the result of growing pension promises – not taxpayer underfunding. 

The new Chicago Tribune Editorial Board is also an advocate for reform and a constitutional amendment. “Last chance to reform Illinois pensions from a position of strength,” they championed today.

In the end, nobody is against government workers getting good retirements. But they should get them through 401k-style plans like everybody else.

Guaranteed lifetime pensions, compounded cost of living adjustments, unused sick leave that can be cashed in for years of service, salary spiking, double dipping – it’s all got to go. 

To learn more about how Illinois got into this mess and what to do about it, go to Wirepoints’ Pension Solutions.

*Hat tip to one of our readers who brought this to our attention. Leonard is the superintendent of Eanes School District in Austin, Texas. The district was recently in the news due to the national controversy of mask mandates in schools.

Read more about the pension crisis in Illinois:

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Kristen Vengler
2 years ago

Wow! Look at the salaries of the teachers in his current district. He has a bonus structure the teachers don’t have.

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Pop tart
2 years ago

Hey Leonard/ times up!

Dr. Tommy Boy
2 years ago
Reply to  Pop tart

Ummm….no it’s not. Making bank baby! Hey pop tart/ time to pay me!

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Tommy Boy

Oh brother, we have the goon is question commenting … 🙁

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

“Maybe he feels guilty about drawing a big pension while earning a big salary, maybe not. We don’t blame him for his choices. He’s taking what the state’s morally bankrupt system lets him. Instead, we blame Illinois bureaucrats who do nothing to fix the system.” I’m going with “maybe not”. A realistic comparison to an equivalent private sector position would likely show his compensation is not excessive. There are some public sector workers who manage to make it into the ” top five percent ” income group, but they are barely over the threshold. And… The Illinois bureaucrats –did– do… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

I’m going with “maybe not”. A realistic comparison to an equivalent private sector position would likely show his compensation is not excessive. 
Oh here we go AGAIN, another ride on the Fantasyland Lie Machine of Monkey Boi … Give it a rest, this klown would have trouble getting hired to replace you as Walmart Greeter

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

We all know there is a Bart janitor who made over $200,000 a year. That is called anecdotal evidence, and is an extreme outlier. It happens. I do not know, or know of Dr. Leonard. He may be an excellent Superintendent, or he may be a dud. It is irrelevant. Statistically, using dozens of variables, a man/woman in his circumstances would earn more in the private sector. Considerably more. It’s not even debatable. In the end, the extreme high and low earners will average out. Ask Tough Love about the CV of Andrew Biggs or the bona fides of the… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

We all know there is a Bart janitor who made over $200,000 a year. That is called anecdotal evidence, and is an extreme outlier. It happens….. Statistically, using dozens of variables, a man/woman in his circumstances would earn more in the private sector. Actually it was $271K you babbling birdbrain. And it is not an outlier ANYWHERE except in gov. When was the LAST TIME you saw a private sector janitor make $271K/year? NEVER, that’s when! BTW that $271K was not counting his PAID time off (about 13+ weeks). Statistically speaking the average GED cop in CA, making $200K+/year, before… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

You realize, “per capita” means the entire population. Even those born yesterday, making$29K/year. And “A realistic comparison of –all– public and private employees in any state will show that public employees are not compensated more, except at the level which requires no education; and even at that level, there are valid public policy reasons for the differences. That’s the difference between empirical data and anecdotal bullshit. Dr. Leonard is not “another failure of Illinois pensions”. He is not the cause of Illinois abysmal pension fiasco.” Neither are the cops. Not even the janitor. Wherever you go, there you are. Dazed… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“A realistic comparison of –all– public and private employees in any state will show that public employees are not compensated more, except at the level which requires no education; and even at that level, there are valid public policy reasons for the differences. LOL… Except for the “No-Education” jobs, which accounts for what-75%, 85%, 90% of public employees? And WHO are those GED Wonders? How about Firewhiner, Cop, Prison Guard and of course the infamous “Port Pilots” making $500K+/year with that big bad GED! How many times do I need to spank you Monkey Boi, before you stop the CalTURDS… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

My new name for you is Giuliani junior. Leaking from both ends and totally devoid of meaningful evidence.
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Images are fine. Wirepoints is slower than Bury.

Take your RICO lawsuits to court. You, too, can lose your license, if you have one.

American Enterprise Institute. Ask TL about the CV of AB. TL –knows– that to arrive at equal “average compensation”, you have to cut the most from those already paid the least. Difference between him and me is, he likes the idea.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Take your RICO lawsuits to court. 
Hey, all it takes is ONE of the CalTURDS member muni’s and it will be GAME OVER for CalTURDS. Civil RICO= TREBLE DAMAGES Monkey Boi!

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

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Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Port pilots now. Approximately .000005 percent of public workers.

Keep your puppy eyes on those bright, shiny, objects. You’ll get cataracts, and –real– pension reform can’t happen because y’all can’t see the forest for the trees.

Tell it to the judge.
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Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Port pilots now. Approximately .000005 percent of public workers.
Port Pilots= GED Gov Job compensating $500K+/year. More than Firewhiner. BTW how many private sector Firewhiners are there Baby Einstein?
.
Moneky Boi= Spinning CalTURDS Bullshit Non-Stop 24/7/365

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

I have been reminded that hyperbole is not usually intended to be taken literally. (Fred)

Also noted that “If you believe it, it’s not a lie.” (George Costanza)

Doesn’t mean it’s true, either. (Douglas)

That being said, you still have SOS. Your anecdotal outliers have negligible effect on the normal cost of pensions, or the massive debt from skipping three decades of contributions. And they show a twisted understanding of the comparison of compensation. What else is new?
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GED workers of the world, unite!

Fred
2 years ago

I am curious what public employees and their unions did to oppose the contribution shortfalls … while demanding and accepting raises at the bargaining table? They had the ears of the courts and as far as I know they failed to seek mandamus or other judicial intervention. Contracts were being broken left and right for an extended period of time. Do you think the applicable statutes of limitation have expired so that they can no longer claim pensions that could have been funded via timely and full contributions? Whose fault is it that Democrat legislators and mayors and governors failed… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

New Jersey tried. I thought I read something similar about Illinois. New Jersey SC said the ultimate pension payments were guaranteed, but state contributions, not so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/nyregion/christie-wont-be-forced-to-make-pension-payments.html

In the 90s after Pete Wilson raided the fund to balance the California budget, a constitutional amendment gave CalPERS plenary authority to take the money. From the state or from local governments. No vote, no veto, can change it.

This is where real pension reform is needed.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

“I am curious what public employees and their unions did to oppose the contribution shortfalls”“They had the ears of the courts and as far as I know they failed to seek mandamus or other judicial intervention.” After the pension clause was added to the constitution, pension members tried on 3 separate occasions to enforce funding. Illinois Federation of Teachers v. Lindberg The Supreme Court concluded that the drafters did “not establish the intent to constitutionally require a specific level of pension appropriations during a fiscal year.” McNamee v. State The court concluded based on the statements of Delegates Green and… Read more »

Fred
2 years ago

I appreciate the enlightenment on this. These cases, however, are more than 20 years old. I think it may be time to try again. McNamee (1996) observed: We therefore hold that the amendment to section 3–127 does not violate section 5 of article XIII of the Illinois Constitution. Section 5 of article XIII creates an enforceable contractual relationship that protects only the right to receive benefits. Plaintiffs do not contend that the amendment to section 3–127 diminished their right to receive pension benefits. In addition, plaintiffs’ complaint does not allege that the new funding method will impair benefits by placing… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

“A potential deal for state pension reform” AEI, July 24, 2020 ” To the degree a state’s pension plan is what drives it toward insolvency, addressing pensions separately before things fall apart might avert a larger economic catastrophe. We propose, at least for discussion purposes, that if a state requests and receives federal aid for pension funding, then the state must agree to bring that public pension under federal regulation that was qualitatively similar to what private pensions work under.” “Put in simple terms, in exchange for near-term financial assistance, states would accept the same deal that federal law requires… Read more »

Fred
2 years ago

ERISA excludes government plans (in the interest of “federalism”) and also “church plans” in the interest of freedom of religion. That was in 1974 so who knows what “Washington” might do now. Many states have enacted fiduciary responsibility laws modeled on ERISA, but have not dealt with the funding problem. I am confident that Illinois and other states will find a way to divert COVID and other funding to pension plans — or else to pay salaries in order to enable pension contributions. I support an optional federal insurance program modeled on the PBGC, but states would have to opt… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

I am curious also. In the several human capital studies I mentioned comparing public and private compensation, several factors were considered; age, gender, race, education level, specific location, size of establishment (important factor), experience, tenure, etc. One thing specifically considered but rejected as a relevant factor was … Union membership/nonmembership. Biggs discusses that briefly in his 2014 paper. I don’t recall much about it, as it didn’t seem important. Then or now. California also has very high education costs and poor results. New Jersey, as I understand, has very good schools. It’s beyond my ken to explain why or offer… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Look what good your education has done for you…
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Fred
2 years ago

I found someone who agrees with you … and he’s not a moron.
Back to School | No Mercy / No Malice (profgalloway.com)

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“A realistic comparison to an equivalent private sector position would likely show his compensation is not excessive.”
Bullshit. He would be lucky to replace you as a Walmart greeter…

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

You’re as embarrassing and impotent as Rudy Giuliani. Leaking at both ends. Roaring on the courthouse steps and whimpering inside. You got nothing.
Did you even bother to check the compensation of private sector harbor pilots? Another one trick phony, even worse than TL.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Did you even bother to check the compensation of private sector harbor pilots?
Oh PLEASE- Enlighten us oh great one, “The Great Monkey Wonder” ….
David C Flinn–Chief Port Pilot II = $635,031.42

https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=los-angeles&q=port+pilot++ii&y=2018

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
Karen
2 years ago

Dr. Tom Leonard, superintendent of Eanes School District in Austin, Texas. Politically funded by George Soros. This guy has a lot of dirt.

Taryn
2 years ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, our family is a member of EANES ISD, and have two young children in the district… our community is a mess and what was once an outstanding district has now become one that is beyond out of control- all under the tutelage of this man, Tom Leonard. DEI/CRT covertly Shoved down the throats of teachers& administrators. This man gave himself an outlandish pay raise & hired DEI/ crt “specialist ” all during the summer of 1999 at the peak of this politically charged covid guise. Can you please share your knowledge of him & the “dirt” you spoke of….our… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  Taryn

Taryn, my condolences to you and your family for the suffering at the hands of this goon….

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
susan
2 years ago

The only enduring solution is that every Illinois taxpayer who pays for the State guaranteed, 55-year-old entitlements must insist on similar entitlements (to free health insurance and State-guaranteed payments starting at 400% of social security(which starts age 67)) . Socialism requires ALL be equal and NONE be given preferential treatment. Illinois Socialism (Some are More Equal Than Others) cannot survive because it requires all Illinois residents who are taxpayers to support an Elite Class of “More Equal” benefit recipients. It will be easy to transition Illinois to actual equality. First, raise property taxes in Chicago to fund its Police and… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

Susan, Your enduring* solution is not based on valid information. That is a fatal flaw. Also, the elite are not who you apparently think they are. Between the BLS (47% more) and the California Policy Center (100% more), and NIRS (7% less), including the value/cost of benefits and pensions, the question of “overpaid” public employees is unsettled, at best. Bad policy would be cutting public pay or pensions based on specious evidence. Worse policy would be cutting pensions (or raising pay) based on “averages”. You want equal? Public sector workers can be divided into three categories**… 1. Lower level public… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

“As a result of these more generous benefits, in particular pensions and retiree health benefits, a typical public sector employee receives total compensation that is approximately 28 percent higher than is paid to a comparable private sector worker. “Put another way, Connecticut state and local governments could reduce annual employee compensation costs by approximately $2.8 billion…” (Presumably more in Illinois.) Biggs ……………………… Is that a carefully worded sentence, or just naive? Will it save the state $2.8 billion, or will it simply transfer much of the costs to different programs? Rhetorical question. Especially since most of those reduced costs have… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“As a result of these more generous benefits, in particular pensions and retiree health benefits, a typical public sector employee receives total compensation that is approximately 28 percent higher than is paid to a comparable private sector worker.
My new name for now is now Pinocchio …

James
2 years ago

When logic fails to intrude you might try ramping up the bullying. The knuckle draggers love it, I bet.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

When logic fails….
Oh brother, James, that is such an ironic comment! Hey, no misinformation can be posted here without getting called out for it…

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Susan, Your enduring* solution is not based on valid information. That is a fatal flaw. Also, the elite are not who you apparently think they are. Between the BLS (47% more) and the California Policy Center (100% more), and NIRS (7% less), including the value/cost of benefits and pensions, the question of “overpaid” public employees is unsettled, at best.
Here it is yet again, the “selected” spin and “statistics” from the CalTURDS King himself, Dougieeee! The Monkey Boi of Public Employees .. Where the SPIN never ends 🙂

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Shirley, you jest. Wherever you go, you are almost invariably the biggest bullshitter on the blog. All you have are one-off examples* which admittedly should be corrected, but overall have minimal impact on the fairness or sustainability of public pensions. If I’ve told you once. I’ve told you a million times, don’t exaggerate! For many of us, you are nothing but a yappy little ankle biting nuisance. You have nothing to contribute to constructive solutions. You are irrelevant. We (I) can fairly easily tune out the static. But you are stuck. You are your own worst enemy, and… Wherever you… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

For many of us, you are nothing but a yappy little ankle biting nuisance. You have nothing to contribute to constructive solutions. You are irrelevant.
But at least I post HONEST facts, not the SPIN you post, ad nauseum, over and over and over again.
We (I) can fairly easily tune out the static. But you are stuck. You are your own worst enemy, and… You are incorrigible…
In my own defense I have attended obedience school recently and was #1 in my class … Now here, take a few bananas from me for being a good Monkey Boi today….

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/bd/bdc9b039dbe81d313bf9c130ef9bd5635223bfcbce14f5a2b4396f53e1075546.jpg

You have Shiny Object Syndrome.

SOS

All the Bart janitors are the Bernie Madoffs of the public sector. Shiny objects. Statistically irrelevant.

And you fell for it.

My “spin” is actual verifiable data from some of the most prominent pension professionals in the country. Even Tough Love agrees, reluctantly.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

My “spin” is actual verifiable data from some of the most prominent pension professionals in the country…..
Oh yeah, right … like the ultra left wing “Center on Budget and Policy Priorities” … Hahahaha…. BTW, TL does NOT “agree” with you, and never did, TL ALWAYS pointed out your “selective” date and websites….

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Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

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And it’s “ensure”.

Herb Caplan
2 years ago

FINALLY, force the politicians in the General Assembly to start the process to amend the Constitution and insure that public employee pensions can be no more generous than average private sector benefits, and maybe less because of nepotism. And create new remedies to deny and claw back government pensions to crooked politicians.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Herb Caplan

Measure twice, cut once.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Wait, now I have to start all over. I’m from out of town. Nobody told me about IMRF.

Over 90 percent funded and employer contributions below 10 percent of payroll?

WTH? Where is this place? Why does nobody ever hear about it?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/debtwire/2018/06/22/solution-to-illinois-pension-problem-may-be-in-states-own-backyard/amp/

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Why would one state fund out of six be over 90 percent funded while the rest are under 40? Are their pensions –less– “excessive”?
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Mike
2 years ago

IMRF pensions benefits have been hiked less than the benefits of the five state pension funds, downstate police, downstate fire, etc. IMRF benefits are less lucrative than the aforementioned pension funds. Yes, the pension benefits are less excessive in IMRF than the five state pension funds, not to mention downstate police and downstate fire, to be blunt. Plus, the unions with members in IMRF are less powerful and less politically influential, on average, than the unions with members in TRS, SERS, and SURSu. (Judges aka JRS, and legislators aka GARS, are not in a union, but are politically and in… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Mike
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Granted, police and fire pensions are higher, primarily due to earlier retirement. Also, pay (and pensions) would be expected to be higher in the Chicago area (Cost of living 10-15% higher).

However, to make the difference between 30 percent funded and 90+ percent is incredible. As in, not credible.
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Mike
2 years ago

The benefits of the five state pension funds (TRS, SERS, SURS, GARS, and JRS) are more lucrative, and have been hiked more, than IMRF. Downstate Police and Downstate Fire are statewide, not just in the Chicago area. The accrual rate of Downstate Police and Downstate Fire is larger than the accrual rate of IMRF. Any idiot knows to not hike benefits if pensions are already underfunded. The politicians in cahoots with unions did pretty much everything wrong. How about the compound effect of benefit hikes? What if benefit levels were frozen on December 15, 1970 until pensions were fully funded?… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Mike
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

“Shorting the annual contribution is one of many problems.”
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susan
2 years ago

BLS recently reports that at the MEDIAN (50th) WAGE PERCENTILE, Private sector was compensated $29.36/hour and Local Government Workers were compensated $50.21/hour!!! That is, PUBLIC WORKERS COMPENSATED 71% higher than Private sector!!! WOW! And that does not even take into account that Illinois skews SUBSTANTIALLY higher than national average on public worker compensation . Another BIG factor that makes 170% way too low (that is, Illinois pays public sector FAR more than 170% of what private sector workers can earn): pension benefits (DEFINED benefits, Constitutionally Guaranteed by full faith and credit of State of Illinois) are quantified on an actuarial… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

Interesting, I didn’t know income by percentile was available, however, the main reason BLS says not to compare is this (there are several other demographic factors. Ivy League schools aside, workers without college education earn less than those with higher education. And the private sector has a lot more jobs that do not require higher education. Combine that with the fact that workers in large establishments earn about the same as public workers. –Both– of those groups earn more than the average private worker. It sounds as though you are still trying to prove that public pay and/or pensions are… Read more »

James
2 years ago

Your “30 years” comment some have said really extends way back to 1917! Short a debt payment a little once in maybe a 20-year cycle, chances are its hardly noticeable. Do it for an entire century, and its now clearly a purposeful act with an end totally predictable even at the outset. “This is no way to run a railroad.”

JimBob
2 years ago
Reply to  James

the average life expectancy in 1917 was 54 years . 

James
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

That may well be right, but don’t forget that includes a lot of babies and young children dying whereas today’s death rate for them is much, much less. The adults generally didn’t live as long as they would today, but on average they had to live somewhat longer than age 54. Otherwise, that statistic would be way lower. In short, those who presumably began drawing a pension are unknown from the figure you gave.

Freddy
2 years ago

This is just a side note. I read a while back the all the welfare benefits someone gets in Hawaii are equal to having a salary of $60K/year. That includes cash/subsidized housing/child care/food stamps/free or reduced public transportation/etc due to the higher cost of living. It is approx $28.84 an hour and depending on how many kids you have. I’m not sure what it is here in Illinois but I heard figures of $40K or so. Does anyone know the figure? I know of someone who declines raises because she would lose close to $2,650 a month for child care… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Ah, more “selective” website links I see…. “Center on Budget and Policy Priorities” … hmmm, I wonder if this is a biased, left wing “think tank”??? Monkey Boi wouldn’t try to flim flam us with a biased lefty “study” would he?? Lets see….: “CBPP bills itself as nonpartisan, but a look at the center’s stance on issues indicates a left-of-center view. In 2011, the Daily Signal argued the group skewered statistics to benefit liberal talking points. While a chart from CBPP claimed the next decade’s deficits were the result of two recent tax cuts, the recession, bailouts, wars, and the… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Dog, 4 days ago…
The average SS is not $1k/month at age 67 and the average public pensioner is not pulling in $100k+/yr in their 40s. One photo of gas price of $6 gal. for premium does not indicate that is average, or even typical, in California.
Jeff Sessions’ exaggeration of welfare benefits was pure political bullshit.
Excessive pensions is not the cause of underfunded in Illinois… or California.
Your obsession with “firewhiners” is either puerile or Freudian. Possibly both.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Excessive pensions is not the cause of underfunded in Illinois… or California.
Oh Pinocchio, that wooden nose of yours just grew 40 feet with that whopper lie!

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Sure, I’m the liar. Its not enough that several states and countries have demonstrated that equal, or better pensions can be supported, at a lower cost. But even within the most unfunded state (ergo, highest “cost” pensions*), there is a major (170,000 active workers and 140,000 retired) pension plan, proving it every day.

*Illinois (and most other states) are not unfunded because they are high cost; they are high cost because they are unfunded.

Yes, pension reform is critical, done responsibly. Don’t let Wirepoints or stray dogs blow smoke up your skirt.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

The average SS is not $1k/month at age 67 and the average public pensioner is not pulling in $100k+/yr in their 40s. 
You are correct- the AVERGAE SS recipient does NOT start at age 67, because that is the YOUNGEST age to receive a “full retirement”, the age of 67, many wait until age 70 or 71. Some can start at age 62 for a highly reduced amount…

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

So, what was all the “$1k/month at age 67” about? You just make this stuff up as you go along? “some can start at 62”? Like a third of all recipients. Oddly enough, except for safety workers, public sector workers retire at about the same age as private workers do. You’re not even very good at being a troll. You and TL both, for Pete’s sake. Is there drool on your keyboard again? Or is that about AVERGAE for dogs? You don’t even need spell check, Wirepoints does it for you. Don’t leave out “average public pensioner is not pulling… Read more »

Fred
2 years ago

Hyperbole is not meant to be taken literally. You can’t be taken seriously if you are still awake after so many brats and beers. Sleep it off and return after breakfast.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

Point taken. But I think he does expect to be taken literally, and I run out of euphemisms for “lies”.

No beers for years now. And very few brats.
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Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on this thread who believes that Wirepoints is unbiased?

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

I will raise my hand, Wirepoints is not biased. They back up everything they advocate for, which is realistic and fair compensation for public employees so the private sector is not taxed to death while receiving FAR LESS in fringes and overall compensation, far less paid leave and they have NO due process rights if their employer wishes to fire them. Put that in your GED Bong and take a few hits …

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Ivy League schools aside, workers without college education earn less than those with higher education. And the private sector has a lot more jobs that do not require higher education
Hey Monkey Boi, have a new name for you, Pinocchio 🙂 Show me ANY job in the private sector that comps $200K-$500K per year for a GED job like Firewhiner, cop or prison guard…. Waiting …. still waiting …. OK, skip it, it is a rhetorical question, we all know the answer.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Apparently, guys like Stephen Douglas cannot understand that union members are paid (99% if not all) according to political power – NOT merit, competency, or productivity. Public employees are able to get paid above market, FAR above market in GED education jobs like prison guard, FF and LEO, because: 1) there is no outside competition to drive a market wage; 2) through their unions they are able to further manipulate the system through legal bribery, campaign cash. That is it, no other reason/s, certainly not because they are more competent. What most people in the private sector are not aware… Read more »

Juicy Smollier
2 years ago

Apparently, guys like Stephen Douglas cannot understand that union members are paid (99% if not all) according to political power – NOT merit, competency, or productivity.

If you are trying to have a discussion in good faith, you have to be honest about the details that inform the discussion. For example, of course private sector people are paid more. That’s not the question, because they are exponentially more productive. The question is what a public servant should receive for the work he puts in. Period.

The rest is just distraction and typically, lies.

Last edited 2 years ago by Juicy Smollier
James
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

“…because they are exponentially more productive.” You give this somewhat dramatically as something your readers might take as based upon facts but essentially as given its a wholely unsupported statement to make. Care to give some statistics we can all believe as opposed to simply taking your word for it.

Juicy Smollier
2 years ago
Reply to  James

You can’t be serious. I’ll bite though, what kind of confirmation would you like since you clearly don’t realize that when all the producers are gone, you can’t tax anyone enough – is that beyond your pea brain as well, James?

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

Things thought to be true are not necessarily so. Think “flat Earth society,” for instance. All you have to do here is give some kind of statistical verification to support something you obviosly hold as true so we can believe its TRUE and not simply your point of view. It doesn’t matter at all to the logic process whether 90% of your readers already belleve it. If your satisfied with that kind of assured followers, then that’s that. I’m just hoping you’ll dive into it to prove by statistics that its true for the remaing 10% who may still be… Read more »

Fred
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

J.S. You have said what many of us believe (or in some cases KNOW) to be true but are reluctant to say. I’ve had two public sector jobs, one menial summer job and one responsible “professional” job. In both there was an ethic limiting work to the 8:30 to 5 interval including morning and afternoon coffee breaks and mass evacuation without briefcases at 5:00 on the dot. Executives left a few minutes early to avoid the 5 PM elevator crush. The “no briefcase” rule was not because of crowded elevators. One didn’t work past five without being paid for overtime.… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

There’s nothing quite like anecdotal evidence to seem worldly knowledge. Most bite hard on it as gospel and shout “amen.”

debtsor
2 years ago
Reply to  James

you know its true

Fred
2 years ago
Reply to  James

An anecdote based on 9 months employment within the Civil Service Department of a major midwest city … where they tried to dissuade me from going to law school and instead recruit me with offers of quick advancement. As luck would have it, law school offered a draft deferment to my otherwise 1-A profile. Civil Service and City Treasury were the “elite corps” but most colleagues at the time were lifers well into their 40s waiting for age 55 retirement or, with luck, an age 52 early retirement incentive. Subsequent experience at a law firm with a major municipal law… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

There’s nothing quite like anecdotal evidence to seem worldly knowledge. Most bite hard on it as gospel and shout “amen.”
Amen!!!! Brother James 🙂

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

I hope that was cathartic. Oddly enough, before I became a public employee, I was unaware of the attitudes of those like JS and Fred. I don’t have enough acquaintances to rely on anecdotal evidence alone. Small Sample Size Syndrome. I look for empirical data. This was interesting: “Apathetic Workers in State and Local Government Are Costing Taxpayers Billions” “Based on a nationwide survey of state and local government employees in 43 of 50 states, Gallup found that 71 percent of the work force was “disengaged” or unenthusiastic about their jobs – and unwilling or incapable of improving their output.… Read more »

James
2 years ago

Yowza, now you’ve given us some statstical food for thought.

Heyjude
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Stephen and James, I’m curious how you see this as statistical proof of anything. The survey was only on attitudes, not a measurement of production. The last paragraph attached a $ value to disengagement, that somehow “suggests” that the problem is more prevalent in the private sector. How is this statistical food for thought? There is no information presented that actually compared public sector and private sector productivity.

Fred
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

Stereotyping is rightly criticized in regard to individual judgments. Each individual should be given the courtesy and opportunity to establish their merit and the “burden of proof” ought to be on the stereotyper. On the other hand, many people harbor stereotypes based either on their own experiences or the experiences of friends and relatives (and often MSNBC or Fox News reporting). Over long years and a variety of experiences I have developed stereotypes of Norwegian Lutherans and Italians and Germans and Japanese and Los Angelinos and New Yorkers and college professors. Experienced based beliefs have their own sort of validity… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

It proves nothing, but surely better than obviously biased anecdotal experience. Attitude is subjective, and productivity is hard to measure. Hell, “they” can’t even agree whether the compensation is equal, which one might think would be cut and dried. I have seen co-workers in public jobs that I would have fired, had I the authority. But I also saw those in private sector work, and in the military, in nearly equal proportion. Disclaimer… they tried to fire me too, but thanks to the union, I received a commendation instead, and a cash award which paid for a pleasant sunset dinner… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

This is as close to cut and dried as it gets. The brown line is bad. Don’t be the brown line.
comment image?mw=1820&hash=140F27A318BB50E181B33C1928AC8A26

Heyjude
2 years ago

I agree and understand that the contributions were not made. But we know that we paid our taxes assessed for that purpose. So the “3rd party” here (IL govt) diverted the funds.
Why does one party (public union employees) believe that only the other side (taxpayers) should pay for this malfeasance?
We both relied on a 3rd party. We should both share in the consequences of that unfounded reliance.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

Why does one party (public union employees) believe that only the other side (taxpayers) should pay for this malfeasance?”

They think ALL Illinois taxpayers should pay. That includes both public and private sector employees. The Illinois Supreme Court mentions this very topic in 2015.

The United States Supreme Court has made clear that the United States Constitution “bar[s] Government from forcing some people alone to bear public burdens which, in all fairness and justice, should be borne by the public as a whole [citations].”

Heyjude
2 years ago

Guess that doesn’t include current pensioners, since pensions are not taxable in IL. Also does not include the many pensioners who move out of state. My original question stands- why should only some bear the cost of 3rd party malfeasance?

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

“Guess that doesn’t include current pensioners, since pensions are not taxable in IL.” Also doesn’t include private sector pensions, 401k withdrawals or IRA withdrawals. It’s treating ALL retirees the same for tax purposes. Although I do find it unfair that retirees don’t pay any taxes on their income vs those working. “Also does not include the many pensioners who move out of state.” Also does not include the many private employees that moved out of the state. Treats them both the same. The answer to your question is ALL Illinois taxpayers are bearing the cost equally. Both retirees and those… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

Good points. Two separate questions… 1. What is the reason for the shortfall. 2. What is the solution. Wirepoints and others imply the reason is excessive pensions. Sort of?* 1. IF… the reason for Illinois spiralling taxes is excessive pensions, well and good. The logical solution is to cut the pensions. If not, cutting pensions will inevitably impair the ability to attract and retain a qualified workforce. Econ 101. Or lead to a corresponding increase in wages, to offset lower pensions. ……………………………… “A CalPERS report intended for policymakers, noting that a reform cuts $435 a month from the pensions of… Read more »

Admin
2 years ago

On your point about the effect of cutting pension benefits on recruitment, you have to remember that new hires are Tier 2s. They are getting screwed, and we support a better system for them, not cutting them. Unfunded liabilities are owed entirely to Tier 1s for work already performed and they must be cut. New hires, to the extent they look at the pension system, quickly figure out that there is no money in the system for them and that they are forced to pay extra to subsidize Tier 1s. Tier 1s are helping drive the new teacher shortage.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

Amazing how that works… “A CalPERS report intended for policymakers, noting that a reform cuts $435 a month from the pensions of many new hires, suggests that a pay raise may be needed to “compete for quality employees.” “…the example is a worker with a starting salary of $46,000 who retires after 20 years at age 62. The pension for the pre-reform or “classic” worker is $2,140 a month, compared to $1,705 for the new hire — $435 less.” Calpensions, 5/5/14 If you don’t pay them, they won’t come. “Tier 1s are helping drive the new teacher shortage.” To attract…… Read more »

Fred
2 years ago

One question: should Chicago hire more teachers or should it close schools with low student populations in order to reduce its staffing requirements? One would have to factor in that many students in Chicago perform poorly and there is a high drop-out rate. One would also have to acknowledge the benefits (tangible and intangible) of neighborhood schools. To this outsider it appears that schools that could and should be closed are kept open to retain faculty at those schools. Some may be long-service (high-seniority) faculty and some may be effective teachers. Am I correct or incorrect about (or a bit… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Fred

You’ve asked some really good questions, and we only hope that those kinds of things will be addressed. But, politics locally and in state government often acts in ways for reasons that are illogical to the common man. They sometimes do it for reasons that are beyond the reasons you’ve stated. What’s practical in an economic sense may well take a back seat to other priorities of a political nature, I’d bet. Its a calculus even Einstein would have difficulty understanding.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

Stephen and James, I’m curious how you see this as statistical proof of anything.
Well, in layman’s terms we refer to this as public employee “Entitlement Mentality” 🙂

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Oddly enough, before I became a public employee, I was unaware of the attitudes of those like JS and Fred. 
Oddly enough Monkey Boi is still brain dead. But I still love him 🙂

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

Apparently, guys like Stephen Douglas cannot understand that union members are paid (99% if not all) according to political power – NOT merit, competency, or productivity.
Dougieee, or “Monkey Boi” as I call him on another site, is a CalPERS recipient, and spins everything CalPERS/public employment in their favor, with selective comments and “evidence”. He never had a real life job, just the public employee work. I suggest you view his ridiculous comments as free entertainment, and once you do it will indeed amuse you.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Juicy Smollier

Union Schmunion. Powerful Public Employee Union is an oxymoron. They are playing defense, and poorly. They can’t even begin to match the money and political influence of business/conservative interests that are working to eliminate them. Who do you think is the political power and money behind the Janus decision? Were they really concerned about his free speech rights? Or his pocketbook (wallet)? Private sector pay is determined by the market. Public sector pay is determined primarily by private sector pay, except public pay is normally counter cyclical, because it is slower to react. Jesse Unruh: “If you can’t eat their… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

 Powerful Public Employee Union is an oxymoron.
LOL… Your nose grew 50 feet with that whopper Monkey Boi 🙂

susan
2 years ago

“EMPLOYER COSTS FOR EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION – MARCH 2021 Employer costs for employee compensation for civilian workers averaged $39.01 per hour worked in March 2021, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Wages and salaries cost employers $26.84 while benefit costs were $12.18. Total compensation costs for civilian workers were $14.10 at the 10th wage percentile, $29.36 at the 50th (median) wage percentile, and $75.88 at the 90th wage percentile. (See charts 1 and 2, and tables A and 1.) State and local government worker compensation costs for employers averaged $53.68 per hour worked in March 2021. Wages and salaries… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by susan
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

“Comparisons: Compensation cost levels in state and local government should not be directly compared with levels in private industry. Differences between these sectors stem from factors such as variation in work activities and occupational structures.”

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ecec.pdf
Page 3

susan
2 years ago

True. Illinois skews far higher compensation than national mean and median for public sector workers.
So readers should assume that civilian costs $39/hour vs Public sector costs of $53.68/hour are significantly lower skewed on topside public sector compensation than they should be:
PUBLIC SECTOR in Illinois must be assumed to make far more than 137% of private sector workforce compensation.

Last edited 2 years ago by susan
Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

That caveat in the ECEC refers to the fact that there is a much higher ratio of college graduates in the public sector than the private, so the average wage would be expected to be higher. Its the classic apples to oranges comparison. On an entirely different principle, when economists compare pay, they compare public workers to workers in large establishments, 500 or more employees (because most governments are 500 or more.) In your source, go to table 6, “Employer Costs for Employee Compensation for private industry workers by establishment size” 500 or more workers: $53.83 total compensation. They also… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

All college degrees are not the same; and many of these education majors come from lower ranked degree factories and graduate into, early to midway through their career, mid to high six figure jobs, especially for administrators or teachers that do summer school. Most other majors from these degree factory schools take jobs in the private sector and never earn as much money as a teacher or administrator does, at least in IL. I know of and heard of few NIU undergrads who today earn as much, through pension and salary, as Dr. Leonard. Even the education dept of Dr.… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by debtsor
Heyjude
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

Exhibit 1 for this assertion- comments made on another story on this site…..

debtsor
2 years ago
Reply to  Heyjude

Right story, just wrong thread

James
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

What you’ve brouht up is a “sticky wicket.” Who or what entity should be the official arbiter of such matters and to what extent does/should that matter to a local school board in choosing the person they want? Its not your position by formal training, state-granted authority or even personal background checking to authortitatively judge the wisdom of such hiring decisions by boards or governmental agencies generally as anything other simply stating upfront its your point of view as a citizen.

debtsor
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Private sector employees don’t contribute to the reelection campaigns of their bosses who negotiate their salaries.

I’d love to give my boss a few thousand dollars every few election cycles with the understanding that my raises will exceed the amount of my campaign contribution….

James
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

Geenerally most people gonna do what people gotta do to get ahead.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Who or what entity should be the official arbiter of such matters and to what extent does/should that matter to a local school board in choosing the person they want?
The free market>>?

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

That caveat in the ECEC refers to the fact that there is a much higher ratio of college graduates in the public sector than the private…
LOL, right …. This is why GED educated cops and Firewhiners are making $200K-$500K/year (with OT), because they have “degrees”. Brilliant !!!

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

That caveat in the ECEC refers to the fact that there is a much higher ratio of college graduates in the public sector than the private
Proof? Didnt think so!

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

Those on here defending the actions of the reprobate Mr Leonard seem to have a sense of entitlement. There you have it – their arguments for the largess are all just bloviating.

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

A sense of entitlement for sure. And also the mob mentality that believes a majority of voters makes anything right. They have so stated many times here.

Every totalitarian government in history has first passed laws to make sure that what they proceeded to do was “legal”.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Everybody wants to go to heaven. Nobody wants to die. Pensions all over the world are in crisis since the Greatest Recession. That’s why they call it the Global Pension Crisis… “‘Their house is on fire’: the pension crisis sweeping the world” Financial Times, Nov. 2019 But the market crash in 2008 did not necessarily “cause” the crisis. It did illuminate the weakness (predictable) in most pension plans, and the need for reform. But most plans, private and public, appear to be salvageable. Illinois? Meh. Also New Jersey, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and others, may need bailing out. And the common denominator… Read more »

susan
2 years ago

One reason to be disturbed by this individual’s situation is that it seems representative of a dirty incestuous policy amongst professional “public servant” class with DB entitlements. Knob-polishing teachers are awarded late-career admin posts to raise ‘4-year earnings’ on which pension-spiked entitlements are based. (This also explains why teachers object to district consolidation, they may think that if they please their masters they will be awarded such lucrative treats). Local example Woodstock D200 middle-aged Caucasian male ‘retiree’ collecting 6-figure DB pension promptly ‘re-hired’ by the same school district as some Admin “head of a department” at a new 6-figure salary.… Read more »

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

What is the current position of the retired Woodstock D200 employee?

Typically in such instances the employee retires from a TRS covered position and obtains an IMRF covered position with the same or another district.

There are rules about working in Illinois in a TRS covered position and receiving a TRS pension; I think it is based on number of hours worked annually in retirement.

It is very difficult to keep track of the loopholes and they change over time.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  susan

“Knob-polishing teachers are awarded late-career admin posts to raise ‘4-year earnings’ on which pension-spiked entitlements are based.” Lets give those admin posts to the new kids on the block, fresh out of college. Most cases I have seen, openings at the top are few and far between. It typically requires twenty to thirty years of progressively increasing experience and responsibility while waiting to a top vacancy. And most never get there. It’s the math. But go with that knob polishing thing. Turn them upside down, and those Caucasian males look the same anyway, am I right? “So this whole post… Read more »

Mike
2 years ago

Gee, I noticed the glass keeps getting bigger every time I fill it up with taxpayer pension contribution water. Oh, that is because the salaries and benefits keep getting hiked so the glass magically grows. Oh, those hikes are compounded. The glass grows more. During the entire time the glass was growing, the pensions were underfunded. The state pensions are a flat out scam. There was no attempt to freeze benefit levels until pensions were fully funded. There was no attempt to freeze salaries until pensions were fully funded. There was no attempt to reign in education spending until pensions… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Mike
James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

The price of consumer goods and services rises nearly every year, and somehow you seem to expect the group of workers you’ve chosen as your enemy of the moment would not want to receive a commensurate raise to compensate for it. I don’t know your occupation, but I think it doubtful you would have done it willingly either. We all know SS is in bad shape, too, so maybe you’d like to write a little check to alleviate that problem as the patriotic American I know you are.

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  James

A repeated scheme at the state level was to short state contributions to the 5 state pension funds so more money could go, for instance, to GSA which was distributed to school districts, a portion of which was used for salary hikes. GSA has since been replaced by a new funding model. Salaries were commonly hiked beyond inflation. Speaking of inflation, the flat 3% annual retiree COLA hike in many of the state pension funds is different than the SS COLA hike which is indexed to inflation. That was especially lucrative during the extended period of low inflation, although a… Read more »

Susan
2 years ago

The only reason I mentioned sex/race of this one case study is to advertise for “bigger bullies” to come rescue us from…this.

Bell California also had legal methods of stripmining lical tax dollars for benefits of local government insiders. It took a different local government higher up the government-corprate-ladder to rescue Bell taxpayers from their own government.

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

With proper reforms, there can be ‘clawbacks’ of inappropriate pensions as for the reprobate Mr Leonard. Will need to happen so the rank and file are not harmed.

Coach
2 years ago

It’s so hard to believe. What a catastrophe.

Mike
2 years ago

Dr. Tom Leonard may not have contributed $322K to TRS. In most school districts the size of Barrington CUSD 220, the board picks up all or a portion of the Superintendent’s contribution to TRS in a scheme known as board paid TRS. To determine if board paid TRS is present, look at the contract between the board and the administrator or union. Such contracts can be obtained by submitting a FOIA request to the school district. In other words one possible scenario is the school district contributed $322K to TRS, but Dr. Leonard contributed less due to board paid TRS.… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

The basic concept you mention isn’t really breaking news in that school boards have attorneys who review such things presumably, and the pension pick-idea has been in effect here in IL for at least the last 25 years and maybe more. I’m guessing its somewhat standard practice in suburban Chicago at least.

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Pension pickups are a sleaze bag practice that should be outlawed.

No union or administrator would negotiate a pension pickup into their contract unless it benefitted the union members or administrator.

The pickups are found in districts statewide.

Some districts do pickups and some do not in any given area of the state.

The pickups make it more difficult to determine an employees’s compensation, with this article and comments being an example of said problem.

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

What kind of irresponsible stooges sit on the CUSD 220 Board? Stewardship must be an unknown concept in Barrington.

Freddy
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

If you are not familiar with http://www.taxpayersunitedofamerica.org here is a reference range from contributions to expected payout from TRS/SERS/IMRF/etc Interesting to look at.
https://taxpayersunitedofamerica.org/15th-annual-illinois-pension-report/
Just scroll down to click here and it will show up in PDF format

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

TUA submits FOIA requests to pension funds which is preferred since the pension funds provide pensionable income, which includes for example teacher stipends. Due to the volume of data, the method used by TUA is the best approach. But just be aware there are instances when pensionable income does not reflect the total compensation. First, the issue of board paid TRS. If board paid TRS is present, does TRS have a way to identify the amount of board paid TRS, and if so do the reported figures include, or not include, board paid TRS? Second, not all income is pensionable.… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Fifteen years ago, when I refinanced my house, we almost lost the deal because the lender had problems verifying my income. Now anyone and his uncle can just look it up online*. As they can with Dr. Leonard.

What you can’t look up is the salary of the top three managers in my wife’s company (over $400,000 each plus bonuses and benefits) These are not school administrators or rocket scientists/brain surgeons. They run a medium size (100 + employee) wholesale produce business. Are you sure Dr. Leonard is overpaid? Compared to what?

*No, not –that– Stephen Douglas!

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

Please, stop with the canard of comparing apples to oranges.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

As you wish. Anecdotal evidence isn’t worth the paper it isn’t written on. There are scores of studies comparing the compensation of public and private workers at the mean. They are mostly useless because they are wildly divergent and there is no convincing consensus. There is, however, one pattern that has been documented for public workers in every state and in most OECD countries. A. Lower level, less educated public workers total compensation (wages plus benefits and pensions) is greater than that for –equivalent– private sector workers. Significantly higher, at the extreme lowest level. C. Highly educated professional public workers… Read more »

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

If you can show me meaningful work done by the reprobate Mr Leonard, I may somewhat agree with you on the rank and file. Bur for reprobate’s like Mr Leonard, very little meaningful work is comparable-spending much of your days understanding how to game the public employment system isn’t meaningful work.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

To be clear, I am not advocating reducing pay for the rank and file as the CBO mentioned. The pay compression is referred to as a “floor” on public compensation, and it is there for a reason.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Please, stop with the canard of comparing apples to oranges.
LOL, it is Monkey Boi’s stock in trade 🙂

nixit
2 years ago

I’ll give you two options:

1) Stop compelling me to pay the taxes that fund public sector salaries, then you can keep those public sector salaries private.
2) Compel all levels of government to invest heavily in my employer, upon which I will gladly share my salary, which will be greatly inflated due to bonuses earned from the large influx of compelled tax dollars.

Take your pic.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Here are your two options nixit: 1) Stay in Illinois and pay your taxes to fund pensions and other debt and services. As long as you earn a living in Illinois you will be sharing a portion of your income and pay a percentage of your home in real estate taxes. The longer taxpayers delay paying this debt the more expensive it will become. You are free to complain on this board but understand that complaining will not lower the cost of the debt or your taxes. Taxpayers in Illinois owe this money and there is no way around it.… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Magnanimous, but the option is not mine, or yours. It has been decided. The problems are twofold; yes, my private information should not be public knowledge, IMHO. For Freedom Of Information, it should suffice in most cases to disclose my position and the accompanying wage and benefit. The California State Controllers office has a searchable database of all (mostly) state, city, county, and special districts, without the employees name. There are obvious exceptions, if they list the compensation of the mayor or police chief in Adelante, we can all put a name to that position. (Or the superintendent of Barrington… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

The issue is that quite a few ‘highly’ educated superintendents graduate from low rated Degree Factories that employ grade inflation. Even Mr. Leonard got two degrees from Northern Illinois University with an average SAT score of 1110, which is just above average for all test takers. He likely earns moer than 95% or even 99% of all NIU grads AND HE HAS A GOVERNMENT JOB. It’s a scam and you know it. His pHd (which we all paid for too with our tax dollars) is from Loyola, another known craphole of a leftist school. The kids who are too dumb… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by debtsor
James
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

My, my, aren’t you the all-knowing elitist? Perhaps you’re equally skilled at such personal rankings nation-wide as well without even haven been to such places. Impressive.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

“The issue is…” It seems like you think public employees are an alternate species, sui generis. They ain’t. Most public employees are not public employees at all. They are merely private sector employees in one of several job changes (average 12) they will go through in their careers. The average tenure for public sector retirees is about 20 years, which indicates they spent another 20 in the private sector. Only about one of five retirees is a career employee (30 years or more.) And that’s just retirees. Half of public employees don’t even stay long enough (typically 5 or 10… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

Do you understand what it means to fund the pensions, right? Poor BIPOC children won’t get the healthcare they need; Children will play on delapidated playgrounds, potholes on the streets will be 100x worse, and massive cuts to public works and employment will be necessary, in addition to raising taxes to confiscatory levels that drives away residents. Your pension is racist and steals from the future of our children who can least afford it.

your response? GIMME MY MONEY, BISH

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

“Granted, it may be too late for Illinois.” And New Jersey, and Kentucky, etc., etc. Granted, “fund the damn pensions” is a poor choice of words. I’ll try not to do that again. Just saying, to solve the problem, first you must correctly identify the problem. And the problem is not overpaid, or over-pensioned employees. Illinois public workers do earn more than the national average, but not that much more. They are about on par with most of the other major population, high cost of living areas on both coasts. That is to be expected. The high costs in Illinois,… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

For context, see “New York pension systems outperform California” and add “Illinois”. https://calpensions.com/2017/05/01/new-york-pension-systems-outperform-california/ “New York state pension systems are better funded than California* state pension systems, currently take a smaller bite out of state and local government budgets, and still provide pension benefits well above the national average.” The key phrase: “take a smaller bite out of state and local government budgets…” That’s for your potholes. If you are a current taxpayer in Illinois, you probably had nothing to do with the three decades of underfunding. Nor did most public workers. But if you don’t recognize that as the cause,… Read more »

Freddy
2 years ago

I think it comes down to this. What does it cost to educate a child K-12? What costs are involved for a child to meet the requirements to graduate? In Rockford private school tuition is approx $7K-public $16K+ What $$$ amount is considered excessive? Does the $16K spent by public yield kids that are twice as smart as the $7K education. Both have to meet state requirements. If parents had to pay tuition in public schools then they would have a say in their childs education. If parents want to pay $300K for a super fine by me. After all… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Private schools that have a religious affiliation can only exist financially because the people who choose to work there don’t consider money the motivator for what they choose as a way to earn a living; they do so at notably lower wages for the good of the religious cause and the positive feelings they get by contributing to it. There is some correlation between educational excellence attainment and the money devoted to a particular school system, but its only a modest correlation. Spending twice as much probably does produce better results but nowhere near what people who work in business… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Private schools that have a religious affiliation can only exist financially because the people who choose to work there don’t consider money the motivator for what they choose as a way to earn a living; they do so at notably lower wages for the good of the religious cause and the positive feelings they get by contributing to it. 
But But But the public employees are paid LESS than te private sector…. LOL. Thanks for paying, err playing Jimbo!

Freddy
2 years ago

I’m sure I have had this conversation with James in the past but I would like to see opinions on this matter. Every year we get a bill for property taxes and within that bill is the required amount to pay for services rendered. That includes money for salaries/benefits and required pension payments. On my last bill for the home in Rockford there was approx $1,100 out of a bill of $7,100 just for pensions. That may not include pensions within certain individual contracts like teachers but may cover everyone else that works there. Not sure. So the assumption is… Read more »

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

What is the exact wording for the pension line items on your property tax bill?

Freddy
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

To name a few. There are just too many.
Rockford city pension-$701.71
Winnebago county pension $119.91
Rockford school district 205 pension $206.55
Greater Rockford Airport pension $8.65 considering they are making tons of money
So as far as the school district is concerned within the teachers contract is pension pickup which may not have its own itemized line. Teachers salaries are approx $170M minimum at 9.58% pension is $16.3M
Then the regular tax is next to pension like school is $3,420.79. Fair market value is $183,260

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

School district’s pay nominal costs (something like 0.5% of current salary totals) towards the pension system for already retired teachers, and from the small figure you mentioned I’d guess I’ve identified where that goes. Maybe a similar story applies to those other taxing bodies. By the way, that’s in addition to the money for current the current teachers’ salaries rptoward their own future pension, no matter whether that comes out of the teacher’s pay directly or it comes from the board-approved pension pick-up where those funds were already subtracted from the teachers’ total compensation per contractual agreement.

Freddy
2 years ago
Reply to  James

There is another equation to this mess and that is something you addressed earlier. Returns have been pretty good because of a rising stock market considering pension funds are limited to the amount of risk they can take. I believe they cannot be 100% invested in a particular stock or fund and must diversify. There are many years where they failed to meet the 7.5 or 8% returns needed at that time and in those years of not making the required pension payments much larger returns are needed in subsequent years. I read somewhere that if payments are missed for… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Your comment about the worsening of the pension underfunding situation is right in that if all of the IL public employee pension systems were fully actuarially funded then there would be growth on those additonal assets presumaly much of that time. Without that additional growth it causes ever increasing amounts of underfunding. I think most her know that, but its likely many taxpayers in general do not. But, we also all know that there’s far from clear agreement about stopping such problems. Many here feel underfunding should be accelerated. The immediate response to that is that its the state’s responsiblity… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

“If all of the IL public employee pension systems were fully actuarially funded” as you stated it would have created downward pressure on teacher compensation at the school district level. That’s what is typically forgotten in the whole pension underfunding argument: There’s only $X to go around. $1 put into the pension system by the state was $1 less to send to the school districts which was $1 less to put towards teacher pay.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

You may be right but not perfectly so. Theoretically local property pay school system salaries, and the the state pays school employees’ eventual pensions to those who are vested. But, admittedly school poorer districts and have their employee salaries substantially more subsidized than is the case for richer school district. The federal government also plays a minor role in subsidies. The bottom line here is that the dollars come from various governmental taxing bodies, meaning there is no perfect correlation between the taxpayers who pay school system salaries and those who pay teacher pensions, but overall it tilts as you’ve… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

No, property taxes don’t pay school system salaries, fed/state/local taxes cover a school districts operating expenses which include salaries. Granted, state funding is typically not the largest percentage, but it’s significant. Remove state funding from most school districts budgets to pay the full pension contribution and you are blowing a significant hole in that budget.

Even if a property tax hike made up half that difference, the other half comes out of compensation. No matter how you slice it, each educator’s compensation (and resulting pension) would be lower with full pension payments.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

2/3 of Illinois k-12 school funding comes from local taxes. Only 7% comes from the feds. Many well off suburbs get even less from the state and the feds.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

I didn’t disagree with the conclusion you made except that you were portraying thextwo expensexas a 1:1 correlation. It isn’t since the taxpayers who are responsible for one expense are no co-terminus geographically with those paying the other expense. If one expense rises the other might well drop—or at least need to drop—but never in the same dollar amount relationship.

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

School district’s pay noRMal costs (0.58% of current salary totals) towards the pension system for ACTIVE teachers to help offset a portion of the cost of the increases in retirement benefits resulting from the 2.2 formula increase.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Yes, that’s correct, and I had forgotten it. Thanks for the clarification.

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Those are probably all IMRF.

The school district is definitely IMRF only; TRS is never found on any property tax bill in Illinois.

I have only seen IMRF on property tax bills.

I am guessing downstate police and downstate fire are not on your property tax bill.

Some police departments, fire departments, and fire protection districts have a combination of downstate police or fire and IMRF; downstate police and downstate fire have more lucrative benefits than IMRF.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

I don’t know the answer to it, and I find it perplexing as well in the situations you mention where the title is too vague. I can only say the exact taxing entity always needs to be identified. We’d all like to think that when we’ve paid a bill we’ve PAID it in full unless told otherwise in advance. Apparently we live in an era when upward readjustments to a prior paid bill are legal enough to still be considered payable during the next billing cycle. This is yet another aspect of living in our new Bizarro World.

Being Had
2 years ago

The ponzi aspects of the public pensions is an acknowledged problem.  Retirement benefits should be accrued during the employment years and be more portable than they are.  The structure and terms would before now look more like the retirement plans in the private sector had they viewed seniority differently.   A person can find government sponsored programs that make movement, or pursual of other options, not possible without having to give-up some or all of the financial benefit of being in a program.  One would have to realize that those who pay for the benefit don’t have an out when the program participants don’t… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Being Had

I presume you do realize that the Social Security system has been called a Ponzi scheme as well. I mention it because you can just as easily think of SS recipients as having an entitlement mentality, too. They’ll say that they paid for it and to some degree they are right, but its also true that current workers are paying for current SS recipients. The same holds true for IL public employee pensioners. Some call it an earned benefit while others call it the entitlement mentality as you’ve done. As always, what you call something depends upon the way you… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

 They’ll say that they paid for it and to some degree they are right, but its also true that current workers are paying for current SS recipients. The same holds true for IL public employee pensioners.
You clearly have no financial experience. A DB pension should be fully funded at inception and every day going forward by that funding, otherwise it is a Ponzi scheme. SS is not a retirement program, DB or DC. The fact is the average SS recipient pulls out everything they contributed plus interest in 3 years, but collects for 6 years, that’s the problem.

James
2 years ago

Your pompous insult aside, you say tamayto, and I say tomahto. The difference is far less than the similarity. By the way, I agree with the “ should be,” but we all know its ignored in both cases. They are both defacto Ponzi schemes.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

 They are both defacto Ponzi schemes.
No one in SS, getting on average $1K/month at age 67, is becoming a millionaire like public pensioners are, pulling in $100K+/year in their 40’s.

James
2 years ago

And what bearing does that have upon what I posted? Its a different in degree only. If its wrong in one case it ought to be wrong in the other, assuming the same sort of rules apply. Usually they don’t.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

“$100K+/year in their 40’s.”

Is not average.

More like, extremely rare.

If not apocryphal.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  James

It “should be” done.
It can be done.
It is being done now by responsible states.

Why does nearly every suggestion for pension reform begin with pension reduction? That is predicated on the assumption that public workers are now overpaid, and their wages/benefits can be reduced without affecting the ability to attract and retain qualified employees.

Dr. Leonard earned a pension. The fact that he took another job is irrelevant. There is no means testing.

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

Most people would say Mr Leonard is a reprobate after claiming ‘it’s all about the kids’.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Speak for yourself. I doubt “most” people would say that.

Being Had
2 years ago
Reply to  James

As a government run program SS has its similarities and differences.  When comparing government pensions to retirement plans for the private sector, I compare government pensions to a 401k option where each employee owns their retirement account.    As a taxpayer, I’m part of a group that pays for all of the compensation that government workers get including the workers’ contributions.  It’s the politicians, for the most part elected to serve the interests of public unions, who manage what a taxpayer has to pay to compensate the government workers.   They have over-promised themselves and continue to emphasize their entitlement.  The so-called contract isn’t one made… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Being Had

Presumably you know that 401k accounts can be withrawn in various ways to include a lump sum withdrawal. I say that because you own it! Public employee pensioners do not own the underlying assets—only the right to a specified level of withdrawal from them. The estate of a 401k account holder owns the deceased’s residual value in that acct whereas the estate of a public employer pensioner who was widowed or never married has no risidual value, a really bad situation when the pensioner dies early in retirement. We’ve nearly all known a few such cases.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Being Had

A defined contribution would be much simpler to manage and much simpler to value, at a cost. There is an NIRS report called “Better bang for the buck” “The study calculates that the economic efficiencies embedded in defined benefit (DB) pensions enable these retirement plans to deliver the same retirement income at a 48% lower cost than 401(k)-type defined contribution (DC) accounts.” Win/win; higher pensions for retirees at lower cost for taxpayers. Who wouldn’t want that? I have read one convincing rebuttal showing the 48% is exaggerated, but conceding there –is– an economic advantage… IF the the plan is properly… Read more »

Being Had
2 years ago

Good example of how a bankrupt government thinks and acts. The more they over-promised themselves, the more entitled they are.

So, the higher and higher taxes levied on the taxpayers are net of possibly a 48% lower program cost? How much more would taxes be without this savings?

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Illinois public sector pension rules are far more complex than Social Security, and they were changed more than Social Security, and there was no amendment added to the US Constitution stating benefits cannot be diminished or impaired. And after the pension sentence was added to the state constitution, unions and special interest groups lobbied to hike benefits in just about every year, even though the pensions were already underfunded. That is a major aspect of the Illinois Pension Scam. And the unions are the primary scam artists, with the state legislators and governors being co-conspirators, in an exchange of political… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

All you’ve said is arguably true, but literally none of is news in that readers here have seen it over and over again. Any NEW ideas or general thought you want to express? Please give me a wake-up call; I’d likely be interested.

Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  James

There are many more differences between the Social Security Ponzi scheme and the Illinois Pension Scam Ponzi scheme. The Illinois Pension Scam contains many pension funds, each with their own set of rules. The benefit levels in the Illinois Pension Scam exceed the benefit levels in Social Security. And that just touches the surface. They are two very different Ponzi schemes. The Illinois Pension Scam should in its current form be pre-funded. It is not. IMRF comes closest to being 100% funded, and its funding varies by employer. So a better comparison is comparing the Illinois Pension Scan to the… Read more »

#DumpChicagoIllinois
2 years ago

Look at the expected rates of return in the pension models and then look at actual returns. If RoR were adjusted to reality, the operating budgets would be eviscerated by the obligations to fund pensions out of operating cash flow. Maybe reduce current teacher salaries?

This is just another example of both the corruption of Illinois public employees and the danger of allowing morons into office.

James
2 years ago

Surprisingly your statement is not at all true because of truly spectacular results for this last fiscal year ending June 30th. I’ve seen just a few days ago that the CTPF (Chicago Teachers Pension Fund) gained just over 28%! I also saw the a figure for TRS (IL Teachers Retirement System) but can’t immediately recall it other than to say it was in the same generally spectacular category. CTPF figures for the last 5, 10 and even 30 years (in that last case, I think) were all both positive and exceeding pre-established goals. I think the CTPF annual average over… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

How much risk does a pension fund have to take to get to that expected rate of return these days? A pension system earning an 8% return 20-30 years ago wasn’t too hard when money market rates were over 5% in 1990 and 6-month CDs rates were over 5% up until 2000. Nowadays, pension funds have to be far more aggressive to get those returns. Historical returns, for the most part, are irrelevant. Pension fund returns this year merely reflect the runaway market for the last 12 months. They did nothing special other than riding the same wave we all… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

I’m not in a position to answer the various implied questions you’ve raised, and I agree with what you’ve said here—that they were generally only matching the overall markets and probably nothing more. I was only trying to refute the wrong statement made by the earlier poster that the rates of annual return in the IL public pension system funds are way below expectations. That was true a year ago, but because of the spectacular gains made last year its not true at the present time even going back over many years’ worth of overall averages. I make no predictions… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

Even if… $300,000? $230,000?, $530,000? It ain’t peanuts, but not at all out of the ordinary for a position with that education, experience, and responsibility. He could reasonably do that or better in the private sector. Studies, even by very conservative institutes have long shown that highly educated professionals earn much more in the private sector. (And lower educated workers earn more in the public sector than they would in the private.) Not just in Illinois, but in every state and every OECD country. …………………………………. “Federal civilian workers with no more than a high school education earned 34 percent more,… Read more »

Freddy
2 years ago

Just curious. Rondout school district 72 superintendent is Dr. Jenny Wojcik whose salary in 2019 was $183,421.20. Probably not counting her benefits. Total enrollment is approx 141 students which divided up is $1,300 per student. Total per pupil expenditure is approx $30K probably the highest in Illinois. What can she possibly be doing to justify her salary.There are almost 23 other staff full and part time. There are other small schools with high supers salaries. There are 40 districts with one school and most if not all have supers.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/10-of-the-highestpaid-sch_b_7034036

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

You should start agitating for school district consolidation. The teacher costs may rise to the level of the higher district, but presumably if the other district is small the admin staff should not increase much or maybe at all. The situation you’ve described is outrageous.

Freddy
2 years ago
Reply to  James

That is correct but will increase. I put up the wrong article stating that consolidation did not reduce costs and the new larger district would absorbed their costs and employees. Plus K-8 teachers are paid less than high school and their pay would then increase. I can’t seem to locate the article that verifies your statement but here is one on consolidation. I’ll try to find the one that validates if not. https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/merger-urger-state-senator-pushes-consolidation I don’t see why a dist of 100 to 200 students needs a super a principal yes. Seems like their milking the taxpayers. https://www.illinoispolicy.org/cost-of-illinois-education-bureaucracy-crowds-out-classroom-spending/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/illinois-school-district-consolidation-provides-path-to-efficiency-lower-tax-burdens/ P.S. Is… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Asking the local citizens to consolidate school districts generally is an uphill battle in rural areas especially, but your example of a very, very low enrollment coupled with a very, very highly paid supt. may well tip any such vote to make it happen. You ask if its even necessary to have a supt. in this case. I can’t perfectly answer that, but the obvious answer says that while no person necessarily has to have that title by law the duties still must be done. Let’s just say in this case the duties could likely be done by a combo-titled… Read more »

Freddy
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Here is an article on the what the duties of a super are required.
https://www.jobhero.com/job-description/examples/education/school-superintendent
The hiring of teachers and staff could be a full time job in itself but firing a teacher is extremely difficult. Chicago has one super for 350K students with lots of assn’t supers but Rondout also has one with similar salary.
I think you have seen this with John Stossel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z580y_Z95s

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Now that I seen both of the postings I can give some feedback. The first is a listing of the resposibilites of a school supt. and a suggestion as the qualifications. Fine, and I have no comment as to disagreement. The Stossel show is a common set of complaints about unionization, the effectiveness, work ethic, work load, and compensation of educators. We’ve all heard such comments. If a person wants to search for problems in any area of life plenty will be found. If a person wants to search for miracles he might find a few, too. But, it would… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The Stossel show is a common set of complaints about unionization, the effectiveness, work ethic, work load, and compensation of educators. We’ve all heard such comments. If a person wants to search for problems in any area of life plenty will be found.  — Oh James, you’re starting to echo Stephen Douglas, aka “Monkey Boi” as I call him over @https://burypensions.wordpress.com/. In the real world, the private sector, even union jobs, employees can be fired “for cause” fairly easily. That process is not only infeasible in the public sector, but impossible because of the cost/effectiveness of it. Firing a teacher… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

IDK about school officials in particular, but, as our ex-president often said, “most people don’t know” that the number of public sector workers has been decreasing in the last decade, from 22.5 million in 2010 to 21.9 million in 2020, a 2.6% drop.* Even as the overall population has increased. And Illinois apparently has fewer workers per capita than most states… “States with a larger than typical share of public sector workers often have higher than average government spending on a per capita basis — and vise-versa. Illinois is no exception. Per capita state and local government spending in the… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“* one facet of the “crisis”; fewer current workers contributing to the already underfunded system.”

Which is the benchmark DEFINITION of a Ponzi Scheme, new suckers paying off the old suckers. How many times do I have to school you?

James
2 years ago

One is not an absolute image of the other, I admit. But, in both cases current contributors are supporting those who contributed earlier. Ponzi schemes do it totally while pension systems do it to a lesser extent. Now, does anyone else care here about this hair-splitting difference all that much? By the way, are you always so rude and crude when your face and name are known, or do you only do those things here when you have total cowardly anonymity? The latter is my take on it here from what you post from time to time. Try being an… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

“…fewer current workers…” is not the problem.

“…already underfunded system…” is.

DON’T PAY THE BILLS, THE DEBT GETS LARGER

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Even if… $300,000? $230,000?, $530,000? It ain’t peanuts, but not at all out of the ordinary for a position with that education, experience, and responsibility. He could reasonably do that or better in the private sector. Monkey Boi strikes again. That is what Fatty Rizzo said in Bell, CA, he could make MORE than his $1.8 million @City of Bell, where he had 6 months vacation and a $900K DB if he were not caught and sent to prison: “Rizzo collected a salary of US$787,637 a year, with yearly 12% increases scheduled every July, he received $1.5 million in the last… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

And there is a Bart janitor who made over $200,000 a year.

Learn the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence.

BB
2 years ago

Hey Illinois,
Keep voting for democrats like JB and all the other offices! You get what you continue to vote for! No complaining

JimBob
2 years ago

Teachers and politicians are great role models for those who begin with obscure jobs while building careers that lead to parasitical leisure. Not a few academics move into political and judicial roles. They build up robust accounts at TIAA-CREF thane move into a government paid job with pensions, then into lobbying or consulting. Not all opportunists are mediocrities, however. Nevertheless, many of these public servants are people of limited ambition leavened by foresight and long vacations. Things have worked out well for them. As it has for many career military personnel and their spouses. The irksome aspect is that these… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago

News flash… Dr. Leonard is —not— the reason Illinois pension “costs” are spiralling upward.  Illinois Pension Watch: This is Why Your Pensions are in Trouble   I’ll give it away at the beginning: they’re in trouble because they’re not making the “required” contributions to the pensions. Yes, there are all sorts of other reasons as well, such as spiking, early retirements, sluggish payroll growth, optimistic valuation assumptions, etc. But ultimately the reason the pensions are so little funded is because the state didn’t put in enough funds. And they knew it. They knew it for years. It’s not because of investment… Read more »

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

I’m old enough to have seen a lot of political and financial turbulence in our state and our country. I never thought I would see our system distorted to the point of self-destruction. And I certainly never thought I would see Americans who are PROUD of the fact that they have figured out how to legally fleece their fellow citizens.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

They are proud because they know it is THEIR money. They didn’t fleece anyone but rather traded labor for THEIR pension. TRS estimates that pension cost is about 20% of a teachers salary. Teachers paid their share of 9.4% but the state didn’t contribute their portion. They know that is not their fault but rather the states. Ignorant individuals then decide to blame the pensioner instead of the politicians and the voters that elected them. I’m old enough to remember when it was considered immoral to not honor your debts. Now we have a bunch of people that are PROUD… Read more »

Thee Jabroni
2 years ago

blah blah blah,yada,yada,yada-go mow jesse snarkeys grass,leave these conversations for the adults

JimBob
2 years ago

I am trying not to make this snide, but … what do you say about teachers go on an illegal strike or act in concert in a work stoppage that disrupts students’ educations? It seems to me like a form of extortion. A bit like air traffic controllers. I think you have to consider my attitude in the context off police strikes, doctors’ strikes, etc. Or perhaps Texas Democrats going to Florida to deny a quorum. Another analogy might be price gouging such as plywood in a hurricane or toilet paper in a pandemic. Franklin Roosevelt said that public employees… Read more »

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

“what do you say about teachers go on an illegal strike or act in concert in a work stoppage that disrupts students’ educations?” I don’t support illegal strikes but teachers are well within their rights to strike for pay and benefits. They are not required by law to trade their labor if the price isn’t right. If you withhold their desired pay they are allowed to withhold their labor. “It seems to me like a form of extortion.” It’s not. You just don’t like the idea that the employer can’t force a take it or leave it approach to wages… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

You’re right about everything, except “They met their obligation and they are owed.”

They are racist thieves stealing candy from poor, BIPOC babies.

JimBob
2 years ago

Government contracting is a cesspool of fraud and corruption. We have seen it in the defense industry with $500 hammers and cost overruns. We have seen it in foreign aid where consultants on government payrolls promote pension reform projects by enabling U.S. brokerage firms to enter national markets. The entire system operates under a cloud of legalisms and virtue pronouncements such as national defense or educating the young. Think only of the proliferating student loan programs or the way Head Start funds have been misspent. Public labor contracts fall somewhere along a spectrum of obfuscation that takes place under color… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

“Now we have a bunch of people that are PROUD to be a deadbeat.” It’s time for a pension jubilee! It’s in the bible! Leviticus 25:8–13 states: You shall count off seven Sabbaths of years, seven times seven years; and there shall be to you the days of seven Sabbaths of years, even forty-nine years. Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land. You shall make the fiftieth year holy, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its… Read more »

NB-Chicago
2 years ago

Ppf, what do you consider the state pension debt owed? The rediculous $144 billion gov cash acounting figure? Or the in outer space +$400 billion full accural acounting /moody’s figure? Do you believe in a society where we all plan our economic future by the same rules (full accural accounting)? Or cash accounting/ accurals don’t matter for the (gov employee) few but paid for by the chump taxpayer majority?

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“Teachers paid their share of 9.4%” Wow, what a number. Just ONE slight problem, it is a lie. IL teachers pay only 2% of their pension costs on average, many pay nothing. Dont let the facts hurt too much when they kick you in the rear: “An analysis by the Illinois Policy Institute of data from the Teachers’ Retirement System, the Illinois State Board of Education and hundreds of teacher contracts found that in nearly two-thirds of districts across the state, teachers don’t contribute the full “employee share” toward their pensions. In fact, most of these districts don’t require their… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
James
2 years ago

Now, you portray yourself as an expert on most things, so I’m surprised that you don’t understand the difference between “salary” and “compensation.” Compensation encompasses of an employee’s benefits. If one side wants to switch part of salary to another benefit, it shouldn’t matter to the employer, presuming the total spent for compensation remains the same. That’s what’s happening here in the situation you’ve mentioned. Compensation can encompass items formerly considered as salary. Which category fits such a request is a matter for negotiations. Now, surely a smart guy like you can understand that, or do I need to repeat… Read more »

JimBob
2 years ago
Reply to  James

I assume this discussion is about “pick up” plans where the employer pays (picks up) the employee’s contribution instead of giving the employee an increase in salary. The employee’s gross salary does not change, but the take-home pay increases by the pick-up amount, which is also the cost to the employer. If Rex has the numbers approximately right, then you are saying that you gave up a 7+% raise. I expect at collective bargaining time you also got a substantial raise and that you get step increases due to seniority. These are seriously BIG pay increases and the way it… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

“If Rex has the numbers approximately right, then you are saying that you gave up a 7+% raise. I expect at collective bargaining time you also got a substantial raise and that you get step increases due to seniority.”

That’s a big “if”. The Wonder Dog is prone to hyperbole.*

* e.g. “No one in SS, getting on average $1K/month at age 67, is becoming a millionaire like public pensioners are, pulling in $100K+/year in their 40’s.”

James
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

So, presumably you think public employees never should get a raise higher than the last year’s CPI. If so, such people would never have more purchasing power than on the day they entered their job. Your retort might well be that employees usually get promotions, so maybe 3-4 times they would get raises that truly increased their purchasing power, but all the years they have no such significant raises their morale should be fine enough until that next promotion occurs maybe 5-8 years later toward the end. If that’s your opinion you’re dreaming. Low morale among employees is never a… Read more »

JimBob
2 years ago
Reply to  James

James, you are having a busy day. You must have the summer off. The point I was trying to make is that each time your contract renews the pick-up provision, that is supposed [under federal tax law] to be in lieu of a pay increase. So your negotiated salary increase is on top of the pick up. Most of us in the private sector have a job with a responsibility. A teacher is a teacher; a proctologist is a proctologist. There is no “rule” that her pay must go up with the cost of living. Economically, productivity is what warrants… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

Well you’ve covered too many topics here for me to respond without critics blaming me for reading its length. Let me just say again that literally no one would take a job thought to be likely decades in length where you had no reasonable expectation of a purchasing-power increase. The idependent contractors you mention in passing can charge what the market bears and change their billing without a suprvisory board to say otherwise. Teachers vary in their skill levels and enthusiasm, too, just as in any other group you might name. That’s relevant to their employer and varying from one… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

Just talk with your various acquaintances about how teachers should be evaluated for pay, and please try to remember that schooling is required by the state. That means you need lots (as in what—250,000 or so?) teachers to man the system in IL. We always have a miniscule number of teacher applicants each year by comparison so you’ll need to have the tolerance and incentives for current teachers to keep at it for multiple decades. So, get too picky with that evsluation instrument, and you’ll find so much anxiety created among teachers you’ll be causing many to leave voluntarily or… Read more »

JimBob
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Students who work to improve deserve teachers who can help them advance in their studies and become qualified for further education or jobs meeting their qualifications and abilities and work ethics. Students who are there because they are “forced” are little different than prisoners and those students don’t need or warrant credentialed teachers. Students who attend so parents can work warrant child-care specialists or perhaps, at certain ages, prison guards able to maintain coercion. Understood that children mature at varying rates so there should be entry points for late bloomers. GED is probably not enough. Similarly, trained librarians should not… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  JimBob

I agree with nearly everything you’ve said and appreciate the polite, thoughtful way you’ve expressed it, something akin to a breath of fresh air. To me the current system is a hugely inefficient and burdesome enterprise financially. Those students who are ready, willing and able to fully mentally participate will find ways to benefit from it, but they are counterbalanced perhaps greatly in numbers by students who are mostly clock-watchers putting forth the interest and effort that brings to mind—basically relegating the experience for them to far, far less of consequence than might well have been hoped for them and… Read more »

JimBob
2 years ago
Reply to  James

To focus on a single issue, what should we try to teach children in grades 1-8? Start with reading, writing and arithmetic. Can we agree that these are not propagating dominant patriarchal Judeo-Christian white culture? If there are no foundational skills that all young inhabitants should acquire, then the entire enterprise is doomed to fail. There are a few more areas such as health and elementary science and art where there might be a [narrow?] path of cultural consensus. But why should a majority of dull, conforming, law-respecting, grammatical, moderately religious and predominantly white families have to be broadened by… Read more »

susan
2 years ago

Are property taxpayers happy with Governor’s efforts to make compensated school district workers eligible for duplicative IDES unemployment benefits?

https://www.ctulocal1.org/posts/psrp-summer-unemployment/#:~:text=On%20June%2025%2C%20Governor%20Pritzker,for%20unemployment%20again%20this%20summer.

Freddy
2 years ago

Adding insult to injury. This is an older article but I am trying to find the original Tribune entitled Taxpayers socked twice-Pensions and penalties. It was a long article -2 pages of school breakdowns and penalties levied.That had a breakdown of the school districts with the highest penalties since the 6% cap was enacted. Rockford 205 so far has the distinction of being #1 with $3M in penalties. Many in the district were getting 15-20% increases. This is just a small article.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-school-pension-spikes-met-20150522-story.html

Marie Gardner
2 years ago

I’ll say it again. In Illinois Politics the inmates run the asylum. When the very same people who vote and decide what the pensions should be are the very same people receiving those pensions how do you think that’s going to work out? It’s going to be exactly what we’re seeing right now. The system works in their favour not ours. Does anybody have any ideas what we do about it?

NB-Chicago
2 years ago

Agree, Mr. Leonard’s double dip pensions are sickeningly grotesque but he’s doing nothing illegal. But dummy me, for Illinois what happen to laws that rauner and others proposed back 3 or 4 years ago to put an end to pension double dipping? was anything passed?

NB-Chicago
2 years ago
Reply to  NB-Chicago

Maybe off subject. I assume in Illinois there are no restrictions on pension double dipping? But what makes Illinois such fertile ground for pension double dipping is are ridiculous +7,000 units of government with +660 different pension plans.The vast majority of which are for police and fire. A cop can get vested for a pension in one municipality and move on to working on getting vested in a second municipal pension, etc. Pritzker when first elected proposed consolidating all of the +600 police and fire pensions under state control which if passed (it wasn’t) one would assume would put an… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  NB-Chicago

I think you’ve hit the heart of the issue here. When such rules apply to public employees in IL the employee generally is either prohibited from further employment under the same pension system or suffers either an immediate temporary reduction or suspension of his pension upon taking such new employment until such time that no longer applies. There are also cases where further employment in the same pension system is possible without a reduction or suspension as long as such new employment has a “temporary” status to it such as a short time frame and/or a maximum number of hours… Read more »

NB-Chicago
2 years ago
Reply to  James

This is good info– Illinois has 2nd highest # of none state controlled local pension plans @ 651. Pennsylvania has a crazy 1,594 none state controlled local pension plans (would be interesting to learn how they regulate their plans).
There are a total of 5,232 state local pension plans of which the majority are state controlled. And 297 state pension plans. https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiatives/state-and-local-finance-initiative/projects/state-and-local-backgrounders/state-and-local-government-pensions

Jay Fled
2 years ago

As hard as it is to swallow, this is not a double dip. He retired from a job which gave him a pension. Is he supposed to stop working for the rest of his life because of that? A double dip would be if he retired from his job for pension, and then was rehired by the same municipality/district to do the same or essentially the same thing. I worked for the city for 28 years took my pension, left the state and got another job. Is that double dipping? No, it is continuing on with my life. Many resent… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  Jay Fled

He retired from being a superintendent, then took a job as a superintendent, therefore he is not retired from being a superintendent. That’s the exercise here. I don’t hate the player. He appears to be a very smart guy who is great at his job. Nor has he done anything illegal. But it is definitely a moral and ethical grey area. Had the retirement age accurately reflected the date upon which he actually retired from being a superintendent, with full benefits, then he either never would have left Barrington or would be working in Texas while his Illinois pension waited… Read more »

Jay Fled
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

He agreed to do the job of superintendent. As part of the job, it was agreed that if you do this for X amount of years, we will give you a pension. He fulfilled his end of the agreement. No where did it state, nor should it, that when you leave this job, you can’t do the same job anywhere else. Based on that line of reasoning, anyone who works the minimum amount of time required to earn a pension can never again take a job in that line of work. That’s a ridiculous argument.

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  Jay Fled

All the trades suspend benefits and/or limit the amount of hours a retired tradesman can work if he goes back to work while collecting a pension. If that’s ridiculous, may I direct your complaint to AFL-CIO president, Richard Trumka? Scrap that, he’s dead.

Last edited 2 years ago by nixit
Jay Fled
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

That’s a union that enforces that to protect its members, and you know that upfront when you join. How does that apply here? And I’m not the one making a complaint, the argument itself is flawed. Because someone “retires” without restriction, why can’t they get another job?

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  Jay Fled

You said it is a ridiculous argument that “anyone who works the minimum amount of time required to earn a pension can never again take a job in that line of work.” “anyone” Yet I identified millions of anyone’s who can never take a job in that line of work just because they’re collecting a pension. Why is the most qualified yet retired tradesman prohibited from working on a project at my local school district? According to James, employers were entitled to hire the most qualified candidates. Apparently, I can hire a retired superintendent to be a superintendent but I… Read more »

Jay Fled
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Reading is a skill, practice!

Freddy
2 years ago

Don’t forget this is totally legal in Illinois. In Illinois if someone in the public sector retires and decides to go to work even in the same field or job they can get the pension and salary. It’s a different matter in Wisconsin. Then Governor Walker changed the rules so if you go back to work you must suspend the pension in the same field or job classification. This applied to new retirees but approx 8,000 were grandfathered in so they can do both. If they get a job in another state they do not have to suspend because the… Read more »

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Freddy I understand this is legal in Illinois, but what makes me so angry is I receive a private pension (RRB) and yes I can go back to work but I’m capped at 17,995.00 and for every 2 dollars I make over that cap I have to return 1.00 back to my retirement. When I turn 65 or 66 I don’t remember then I can make all I want.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fed up neighbor
nixit
2 years ago

Fed up – Does your private pension have any COLA?

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Yes we receive a COLA but it’s not a automatic amount each January of say 2% or 3% are’s is based on what social security receives because of are SSI benefits.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fed up neighbor
Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

For 2021 I believe it was 1.3% based on the rate of inflation.

Freddy
2 years ago

Different rules for public vs private. My friend is a retired carpenter and yearly increases are very small and according to his union if he wants to work as a carpenter he must work in a union shop and suspend his pension until age 70 then those rules won’t apply. He could possibly lose some benefits if he works in a non union shop. Another friend worked for the Chicago school district need I say more as a janitor and retired at 55 now 69 and making a pension of $84K. I won’t receive a pension and next year will… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Bingo. As I stated above, all the trade unions penalize union members in some fashion for working after they retire. This is so the old guys don’t poach jobs from the active members. Standard practice since Day 1.

Funny how the unions found a way to manage their workforce and retirement plans properly but the public sector employers, nearly all of whom employ union members, have no such restrictions.

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

So true.

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

Well we all lost Freddy all are real estate unfortunately became ATM machines for state and local politicians there all corrupt thieves in this state especially.That’s why myself and wife are leaving when she retires next year.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fed up neighbor
morefandave
2 years ago

It’s the Illinois way. There are two classes in Illinois: those who work and pay their taxes and those who live off them. And the latter have zero interest in alleviating the burden of the former. They won’t tink beyond “I’ve got mine.”

debtsor
2 years ago

Someone should tell this guy to his face what a scumbag he is. Thieves like this need to be called out for their amorality. Maybe someone should forward this article to his school district? I bet all his peers would LOVE to know how much money he is stealing from the tax payers of IL. Someone? Anyone willing to forward it to the school board and parents in TX? Does this scumbag have pronouns in his email signature too?

Ivermectin
2 years ago

don’t worry, the fascist will never live to collect it, the spike will take him out soon!

Spike Protein
2 years ago

This overgenerous pension is the legalized theft of tax dollars. Illinois needs to desperately change its pension laws.

Eventually, the problem with Illinois’ overgenerous pension system will correct itself when it goes broke and there isn’t a Democrat controlled Congress to bail it out.

The complete collapse of the Illinois pension system is the only way to fix it since those in power don’t want to proactively fix it.

NoHope4Illinois
2 years ago

Why aren’t illegal aliens in Illinois getting state pensions!? It seems like every illegal alien that is welcomed into Illinois should be a member of one of the unions right away. I mean, isn’t that just fair?

Ex Illini
2 years ago

Ironic that he moves to a state with no income tax to collect his Illinois pension. Everyone would be wise to follow.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Ex Illini

No state income tax would be collected on his pension if he still lived in Illinois. There is no advantage for him.

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

But then he wouldn’t have his 300k Texas job, would he?

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

Is that what bothers you? So you’re jealous that his skill set allows him to go get another job making 300k. True envy.

Ex Illini
2 years ago

But that’s where your new taxes come in! Retirement income will get taxed in Illinois or the pensions won’t get paid. Or do you want to have your cake and eat it too?

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Ex Illini

Taxing retirement income both public and private may well happen, but if that comes to pass at anything approaching the current income tax rate it be a mistake by causing more retirees to move elsewhere. They might well accept some mild taxation, but I’d advise half-rate taxation or some sort of considerable tax-free level of income exemption. Without one of those tax breaks its a motivator for higher income retirees to move elsewhere. By the way, IL can’t solely tax public employee retirees. All retirees must be taxed for it to pass legal hurdles.

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago
Reply to  James

James I don’t think retirees would complain or mind that much if there retirement was taxed most states do it now at a reasonable rate, problem is everyone has had enough of Springfield’s malfeasance, out of control spending, high property taxes which you and myself know are going thru the walls, until things get under control and come in line people will be heard loud and clear as to why I’m I being taxed and like you stated pick up and leave, Illinois is in a very sad state of affairs.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fed up neighbor
Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Ex Illini

Ex, I have no problem with the state taxing retirement. Frankly, it’s completely unfair that a household making 50k while working pays $2500 per year while a retiree making 300k pays nothing. With that said, we would need to be careful as to how we tax retirees. Everyone on this site consistently talks about how they are waiting to leave the state but many people don’t want to leave their business, their job, their family or friends. Retirees clearly don’t have that obstacle. I’m not saying all retirees would leave by taxing retirement but I believe they would leave in… Read more »

Fed up neighbor
2 years ago

👍👍👍 and that is the truth.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fed up neighbor
nixit
2 years ago

Leonard’s pension was based on his top four 4 salary years of his career of which he spent 7 as a superintendent. Props to him for his many successes and ascending the ladder, but yet another example of a pension that is not representative of his entire career in education.

And I would wager the district picked-up his employee pension contribution, even prior to his being super.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago

So he earned his pension and decided to move to another state and work another job. Why does it matter that he works somewhere else now? The state owes him the money whether he sits in a rocking chair or works another job. The state was well aware of the cost of his pension when he was offered the superintendent position as well as his eligible retirement age. What does it matter if it’s a public employee or some hedge fund/lawyer type that starts another position in their later years? Both have a right to their contractual retirement savings and… Read more »

Tom Paine's Ghost
2 years ago

When Illinois goes bankrupt and all of the Public Sector retirees are all fighting over the same crumbs I suspect that you will have a different answer to “pay them what they are fully owed”.

Aaron
2 years ago

Oh, but they are owed everything at all costs. Also, everything isn’t enough.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Aaron

They are owed everything that taxpayers contractually promised them. I realize that bothers many of you but those are the facts.

Freddy
2 years ago

“They are owed everything that taxpayers contractually promised them.” I respectfully disagree with that statement. Yes the contract between the state and state employees is a binding contract as it is written but I don’t see how the contract extends to taxpayers. By your logic that means if it is a binding contract that if I move out of state I still owe that money which is not true. The minute I leave this state I owe nothing but a contract like auto or student loan goes with me wherever I move to. The contract was made by the unions/… Read more »

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Freddy

“Yes the contract between the state and state employees is a binding contract as it is written but I don’t see how the contract extends to taxpayers” It extends to every Illinois taxpayer. If they leave the state they are no longer an Illinois taxpayer. If someone moves to Illinois, they are now on the hook for the cost even though they didn’t vote for the politicians that made these contracts. That’s how it works in every state. “so why weren’t the unions checking on funding levels.” “When funding levels dropped the unions should have been all over this. “ They… Read more »

Freddy
2 years ago

So who is responsible for that. If unions sued who did they sue? Politicians who in my book are not brokers/financial planners/CPA’s/etc except for a few are in charge of a $40B industry of which $10B is appropriated to pensions which only a few may be qualified. If I’m not mistaken former Gov Pat Quinn said Why is Illinios in the pension business. But then again the actual pension payouts come from contributions/returns and state income taxes. The property and some other taxes pay the day to day operations. For me I do not make a lot of money so… Read more »

Thee Jabroni
2 years ago

taxpayers didnt promise them anything dummy,the politicians did!

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Thee Jabroni

You can’t pick and choose which laws you want to follow nor which taxes you pay; its your legal obligation as a citizen to do the whole enchilada in both cases.

Joey Zamboni
2 years ago
Reply to  James

YEAH…! Only Kim Foxx gets to do that…!

2 years ago
Reply to  James

“You can’t pick and choose which laws you want to follow.”-Tell that to Pres. Biden, JB and the entire team, they openly refuse to enforce or follow laws that they don’t like. Immigration laws? Constitutional right to freedom of speech and assembly? Looting? Murder? Theft? Painting political slogans in the middle of streets? Vandalizing and igniting a federal courthouse for months on end, curfew violations during riots? Lying to Congress under oath? Mayor Daley, a democrat, ripped out an airfield in the middle of the night, snubbing his nose at the FAA. Pres. Reagan, a Republican, fired all the air… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Ambiguous End
James
2 years ago
Reply to  Ambiguous End

Governmental leaders are able to escape consequences for things ordinary people can’t. That’s one of Trump’s major legacies. He’s not the first nor likely the last, but he’s the most egregious example in recent times and maybe in this country’s entire history. Others have done lesser versions and fewer examples, but as he said “I alone can do it.” Yes, it looks to be one of the few true things he’s ever said.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Thee Jabroni

Taxpayers elected the politicians. The politicians promised the benefits. Taxpayers promised public employee pensions. If A=B and B= C then A=C. Transitive property Jabroni.

Admin
2 years ago

Correction: Unions bribed politicians. Politicians promised the benefits. Public lied to and unaware. Transitive property is that the promise is voided by fraud.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

Balderdash. Any citizen has the opportunity to read first rather than simply listen to some politician’s explanation and think that’s sufficient. But, people generally follow the easier way of doing things, don’t they? Consequenly, voters when misled ought to blame themselves as well. Bribery is not something unique to Democrats either, I’m reasonably sure.

Thee Jabroni
2 years ago
Reply to  James

true,but like ive stated before,a large number of the population in illinois,and the country,are clueless zombies wandering around concerned about statues and ” hair discrimination”-topics of utmost importance to these neanderthals

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

Mark,

You have proof of a union official bribing a politician for a favorable contract? Why don’t you run that story? Oh, you mean unions lobby to help shape policy which is perfectly legal. Or are you saying that anyone that gives a politician money when lobbying is actually bribing? The law doesn’t state this but just trying to understand your mindset. So when you, Ted or some PAC give money to a politician you are actually engaging in a bribery scheme. Good to know.

Admin
2 years ago

I suspect every reader here knows, as you do, that the level of contributions and political muscle that Illinois public unions have used to acquire excess pension benefits is unsurpassed (except perhaps in criminal cases like Exelon). That’s why it’s appropriately called bribery. Legal bribery, but bribery nonetheless.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

Its not bribery in the legal sense. You are embellishing the process involved to support your tribe’s viewpoint and gain their support for your own ends here. Money is given to political races all over this country with, perhaps, only a very tiny amount of it meeting the requirement to be called bribery. Nice try, though.

Tom Paine's Ghost
2 years ago
Reply to  James

It is criminal collusion. All Illinois public sector union pension money is criminally ill gotten gains. Period. It’s not just a democrat /public union conspiracy or a republican/union conspiracy or unique to Illinois. But in all cases it is criminal and neither the politicians or the union members deserve the money. But it doesn’t matter. The math is inexorable, the funds will dry up and the remaining crumbs will be distributed relatively evenly to the pensioners. Yes, the bondholders will take a hit too but egregious theft like that describved in this article will be snuffed out.

James
2 years ago

Fine. All you have to do is PROVE criminal collusion over and over again every time a vote was taken on public employee pensions over many, many decades. Care to put your money where your mouth is? If not, give it up. Nobody likes to listen to a loser whine.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

So you lied Mark.

“promise is voided by fraud.” then “Legal bribery”.

First you were saying it would be voided because of fraud and then you admit it’s legal. Oh, you were just throwing red meat to your low information followers. Lobbying is different than bribing and you know it.

Although, your carelessness with wording sure calls into question some of your other writing. How much embellishment are you doing in those writings just for effect? With each lie and exaggeration you become that much less credible. Way to help your cause.

debtsor
2 years ago

Pensions are racist because more white people get pensions than BIPOC. Disparate outcomes are prima facie evidence of systemic racist policies.

Try to argue against this? That makes you a racist too.

Your racist pension will soon be cut to nothing.

And I will laugh like Kamala

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

I love it debtsor. So far just today I’ve heard you guys drag out bribery, fraud, the 11th amendment and now racist. You guys are truly out of ideas. Out of ideas but not to worry, plenty left to tax.

debtsor
2 years ago

RaCiSt!

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

I can’t wait to see the public union members whining “but we had a contract” when the well runs dry. And like debtsor, I will laugh like Kamala.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

The only ones that appear to be doing all the whining are those jealous of public pensioners. Oh well, off to grill my prime ribeye steak and drink some Shafer Hillside Select cab. You just keep dreaming about a time in the very far away future. In the meantime, you might try doubling your dose of prozac.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

Actually minorities and women are some of the biggest beneficiaries of public jobs and benefits and stand to lose the most if they are cut.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562421000019

Admin
2 years ago

Spare me the word games. Fraud has a legal and a moral meaning meaning. As far as legal invalidity, no IL court would ever agree, but an entirely fair argument can easily be made that the contractual pension promise should be voided through a combination of doctrines including fraud, mistake and impossibility of performance. Voters would never had put up with the scheduled pension benefits, and many legislators would never have authorized them, if they had fully understood the impossibility of funding them adequately, their ultimate cost and the improper level of influence that public unions exerted over the government.

Last edited 2 years ago by Mark Glennon
Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

You’re the one playing the word games Mark not me. These pensions are clearly legal and enforceable contracts. If you think otherwise then give it a shot. It has as much chance as any of your other fantasy reforms. Even Ted was on the radio and stated these pensions were negotiated. I wonder why he doesn’t utilize the “fraud” argument? Your arguments are getting more pathetic. At least Ted has the presence and honesty to argue that the taxpayers need to wake up rather than blame teachers, firemen and police. But you keep up with the fraud angle. I’m sure… Read more »

debtsor
2 years ago

Equity…

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

How does “the impossibility of funding them adequately” apply to IMRF? It is adequately funded, and at a much lower cost than other plans with similar benefits.

Admin
2 years ago

Will do. Actually, I need to expand “the fraud angle” because it’s a one-word summary for the entire IL political establishment.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

“Powerful Public Employee Unions” is an oxymoron. Unions are playing defense, and not very well. “The broadest classification of political donors separates them into business, labor, or ideological interests. Whatever slice you look at, business interests dominate, with an overall advantage over organized labor of about 16-to-1. Even among PACs — the favored means of delivering funds by labor unions — business has a close to 7-to-1 fundraising advantage.” Opensecrets Unions have been under attack by conservative (I.e. business) funders for years. Legally or morally, if you claim bribery for “excess pension benefits”, you must first demonstrate the benefits are,… Read more »

Admin
2 years ago

We’ve published what could fill volumes, here, of the excessiveness you say you need proof for.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

If you take what happens elsewhere as the preferred standard, then what IL pensions do is excessive. But, one could take the oppositive point of view, too, and say that and suggest that IL sets the proper standards for the level of public employee retirements, and those who receive far less are being short-changed. I know how you will respond, and I know how your sycophants will respond, so its not necessary to do so. Save your time and your blood-pressure spiking in the process as well. “Standards” are what morally ought to be the case rather than necessarily what’s… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

I have been reading Wirepoints for years, and I disagree. If the average salary in Illinois is $60,000 A year, and the average household income is $92,000, I suppose your average reader might consider a $230,000 pension excessive. That is understandable, but that’s not the way it works. Again, I strongly recommend Biggs and Richwine “Overpaid or underpaid? A state-by-state ranking of public-employee compensation”, 2014. AEI has strong conservative credentials, and there are several other studies which confirm the underlying principle of public sector pay compression. The numbers vary from survey to survey, and they change over time, of course,… Read more »

Admin
2 years ago

We have published a reform possibility that left smaller pensions mostly untouched. There’s no reason why reform cannot be done progressively, which we have always stood for. Almost every other state has adjusted benefits downward, reasonably, to keep their systems afloat. “Excessiveness” has to be measured in light of the impossibility of ever paying benefits as now scheduled. What can’t be paid is excessive. If you think there is a way to pay what is scheduled, let’s see it. I have never seen any such proposal, only can-kicks like “reamortization” and pension obligation bonds that solve nothing.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

I almost agree. California is better funded than Illinois or the several other states which blatantly under contributed to their plans. If push came to shove and reductions were necessary, I believe the “pain” should be shared equitably. Schwarzenegger, and others trying to reform (cut) pensions said those already retired or close to retirement should be left untouched. I disagree. Progressive cuts, even to those of us already retired, not because it is “fair”, but because it results in the least harm for the least number.* That said, I think it is mistaken to characterize the –cause– of the crisis… Read more »

Admin
2 years ago

I hear you. “Excessive” may not be the right word, especially as a general statement since not all are excessive.

And I, too, wish the state had tried to fund them fully over the last three decades. I don’t think the public would have stood for it and the problem would have been addressed much earlier.

Last edited 2 years ago by Mark Glennon
Aaron
2 years ago

“. . .everything taxpayers promised.” Fiscal responsibility begins long before it is time to pay up. The taxpayers haven’t had someone negotiate in good faith on their behalf. BTFO Democraps giving over generous pensions isn’t even close to a taxpayer promise. The only thing the Illinois voters (tax payers) promised is a balanced budget.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  Aaron

All IL citiizens long ago ceded their voting rights to the system of representative government where the vote of one elected person counits in lieu of all of those he represents. For better or worse we all have to live with their decisions rather than our own in governmental matters at least. Your complaints might matter but the don’t MATTER in the legal sense if his vote was cast legally.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago

States can’t go bankrupt but you already knew that. Plenty of taxes yet to be raised.

Tom Paine's Ghost
2 years ago

States can simply run out of money and stop paying bills. But your already knew that. A Puerto Rican type bankruptcy board is in Illinois future. Coupled with many other states and municipalities all defaulting at the same time (because once one State falls the bond market will finally wake up and cut off the cash for all) there will be no bailout from the Federal government. Even if a buffoon like Biden is in the Presidency. So…..enjoy fighting over the remaining crumbs of Illinois.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago

If a state can no longer collect enough money to meet its obligations then they will need to raise taxes. If increasing taxes no longer becomes an option then the courts would need to decide who gets paid. Guess where bondholders and pensioners fall in that line. Look what happened during the Rauner no budget years. Also, if the US government believed that the bond market would collapse across the county they would be forced to step in. Talk about too big to fail. The remaining crumbs that you mention are what’s left after bondholders and pensioners receive their payment… Read more »

Thee Jabroni
2 years ago

have you used up your linc card already for this month?!

Tom Paine's Ghost
2 years ago

A better comparison would be Detroit. The bondholders did take a hit but the pensioners also took a much deserved hit. The example of Detroit is what astounds me with the arrogant public sector union thieves. These criminals pretend that their ill-gotten gravy train will never end but right there is an example of the parasite killing the host. But then, government workers tend to be the least talented, least intelligent and laziest members of society so inability in connecting two dots is in line with their skills.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago

TPG, Maybe just maybe those government workers aren’t as dumb as you think. Detroit pensioners were cut by 5.5%. Bondholders took a massive hit. Remember this when you are dreaming of pensioners taking a cut. Now I want you to think about this. That 230k pension that is quoted in the article will be 358k in 15 years. Now even if you get the courts to agree to a similar cut as Detroit, that pension would be “reduced” to 342k. Then you’ll be able to gloat right to the pensioners face. Maybe they are connecting those dots. Oh, and comparing… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

 If increasing taxes no longer becomes an option then the courts would need to decide who gets paid.
Wow, another whopper lie. And wrong yet again, because they won’t make it to court. Once more, States are exempt from suit in both state and federal courts under the 11th Amendment….Ouchie “Pensions Cancelled First” 🙂

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago

If the 11th amendment means what you think Fido, then why did the Illinois Supreme Court smack down the pension reform in 2015? Why did the courts direct the state as to spending when we didn’t have a budget. You can repeat “11th Amendment” until your hearts content but it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

I think we all know why IL Supreme Court “smacked down” pension reform. They are elected, and who controls elections in IL? Or should we continue to pretend that this is just a matter of correctly interpreting the law?
And James, let’s not go the “we have a majority so we can morally do whatever we please” route. You call it democracy, but it is mob rule.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

It was a 7-0 decision. 4 democrats and 3 republicans. Pensions can’t be impaired is literally written into our constitution. There was no other decision possible. Quit whining about elections being stolen with absolutely zero proof. How did those 3 republicans get elected if democrats control the election outcome? You guys complaining about elections are pathetic.

Last edited 2 years ago by Pensions Paid First
James
2 years ago

Complaints without a hint of proof are not a winning legal strategy as “The Donald” and his minions ought to learn at some point.

debtsor
2 years ago

“There was no other decision possible.” Chief Justice Roger Brooke Taney said the same thing in 1857 in his scathing 7-2 decision in the Dred Scott decision legalizing slavery in free states because the Constitution provided for property rights throughout the union. And who can forget Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ famous quote in 1927, Buck vs. Bell, “Three Generations of Imbeciles are Enough”, in an 8-1 decision, permitting forced sterilizations, which today, is one of many cases providing stare decisis authorizing governments to force experimental vaccinations and gene therapy upon the populace. It’s written in the constitution! Now, go back… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by debtsor
Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  debtsor

Yes because enforcing a valid financial contract from the state is the same thing as slavery and forced sterilizations. Your thoughts and ideas have truly become a joke. Ever since Trump was soundly defeated you’ve gone mad. I do appreciate your crazy arguments though. It shows how pension reformers (aka thieves) are completely out of ideas.

Marcia
2 years ago

I don’t understand all of this “must abide to contract’ talk. Didn’t Biden just illegally continue an eviction moratorium that he said most of his legal advisers said he couldn’t do per the Supreme Court but he did it anyway to buy some time? He basically negated a whole lot of rental contracts. It seems contracts can just be bypassed “in an emergency”….even when deemed illegal by the Supreme Court. (Sorry…off topic really because that was really bad IMO and will lead to a rental housing disaster pretty soon as people take units off market, and rents going massively up,… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Yes because enforcing a valid financial contract from the state is…
It can only be “enforced” if the State allows IT TO BE, otherwise
Hasta la vista baby!

James
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

That’s the way it is nearly all the time when either party has solid control. IL is not unique in that respect. The “with all due respect” stuff ends when the majority’s will is clearly going to carry the vote over the finish line.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

If the 11th amendment means what you think Fido, then why did the Illinois Supreme Court smack down the pension reform in 2015? 
Was that “pension reform”, or was it REPUDIATION by the State of the pension contract? They are not mutually exclusive. Me thinks Pensions Cancelled First is grasping again….

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

If the 11th amendment means what you think Fido, then why did the Illinois Supreme Court smack down the pension reform in 2015? 
East answer, because REPUDIATION of the pension contracts under the 11th Amendment was not before them. TY Perry Mason Jr 🙂

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

States can’t go bankrupt but you already knew that.
States don’t need to go BK, they can simply “repudiate” their pension contracts and there is not a thing you, or anyone else, can do about it. States are exempt from suit in both state and federal courts under the 11th Amendment…. Remember that “Pensions Cancelled First” (my new handle for you) ….

nixit
2 years ago

That’s a valid point, but I think the frustration stems from “early” retirement ages being offered to begin with because of the concerns of career burnout. I consistently hear the argument “Do you want a school full of 67-year old worn-down teachers teaching our kids?!” Thus we let them retire in their mid-50’s. Well, Leonard obviously wasn’t worn out because he took the same position elsewhere. If the pension system was structured so he couldn’t have started taking his pension until, say, the age of 62, would he have retired at age 57? Probably not. Which tells me he’s not… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by nixit
Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Do you want a school full of 67-year old worn-down teachers teaching our kids?!” Thus we let them retire in their mid-50’s.”

That issued has already been resolved for tier 2 pensioners. The only ones that can retire in their mid 50’s with a full pension are those that were contractually promised that benefit when they started.

If the pension system was structured”

Well it wasn’t. This issue has been changed to your liking. Again, you’re complaining about contractual benefits that tier 1 pensioners legally traded for their services.

nixit
2 years ago

By that reasoning, anyone hired after 1990 isn’t entitled to compounded COLA because it wasn’t contractually promised that benefit when they started. What was “traded” for that enhancement?

Anyways, I’m merely explaining the thought process of most folks regarding this practice. I never said it wasn’t legal, merely moderately unethical and morally questionable.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

“By that reasoning, anyone hired after 1990 isn’t entitled to compounded COLA because it wasn’t contractually promised that benefit when they started. What was “traded” for that enhancement?” First of all I think you meant anyone hired BEFORE 1990. Anyone hired afterwards would have that benefit on their first day of employment. Second of all contracts can be enhanced or changed if both parties agree. They can’t be unilaterally changed. Basic stuff. “I never said it wasn’t legal, merely moderately unethical and morally questionable.” Nothing unethical about it either. The 3% compounded increase was offered by our representative government. This… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago

“The 3% compounded increase was offered by our representative government. This was done by politicians when inflation was running rampant.” OK, but that “rampant” inflation only impacted anyone retired before 1990, not someone retiring today. Anyone still working at that time had the appropriate COLAs built into their contracts. The state was under zero obligation to offer compounded COLA to everyone going forward. They could’ve come at any point in the future and offered compounded COLA if inflation continued to be rampant. Again, not arguing the legality. I know the deal. Just the logic. The logic is why you see… Read more »

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

The IL courts took only the written word of the IL Pension Clause as its guidance. It prohibits the reduction of a public employee retiree’s pension or even its diminishment, but it says nothing whatsoever about enhancements made to such benefits once granted. Since that 2nd clause doesn’t appear in the IL Pension Clause its not illegal to grant such enhancements and for the retirees to accept them with no penalty for doing so. You may well know that but simply disagree with it. If so, its understandable but something acceptable legally at this time.

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The compounded COLA pension enhancement could have been written such that it only impacted people retired as of that date. A new “tier”, so to speak. Pretty simple to draft for a bunch of elected attorneys. Instead, they f’ed up and took a ham-fisted approach when they knew damn well the pension clause allows no takebacks.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

The writers are to blame as are the inattentive voters who approved it. What’s said and not said became LAW whether by intention or not.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

You do make a lot of sense, but shouldn’t the potential employer have the right to hire the best candidate for the job? I know of a similar situation of a teacher retiree who found an administrative job in the same school district, was very highly qualified for it in my view. Apparently he would only take it if the new job was altered so his new higher salary were reportable under a different IL pension system, and he in demand enough to be their new hire. Consequently, he kept his full teacher’s pension and then had a new school… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago

Case in point: Consortium for Educational Change. They offer consulting services to school districts. Guess who they often employ? Retired educators and administrators. Again, you retired from public sector education at an early age. If you were so intent on sharing your vast knowledge on education to school districts, why didn’t you do so while working?

Stop using tax dollars to resell me information that should’ve been conveyed at the original point of sale.

Last edited 2 years ago by nixit
James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Do you have similar anger for former politicians who sell books, become a news consultant and/or take a new job in an industry doing business with the government? Its all legal. Get over your obvious envy.

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

False analogy. It would be like Pat Quinn collecting a state pension based on his governor’s salary while serving as Secretary of State. Either you’re a retired politician or not.

And he is more than welcome to contract his services back to the govt, he just can’t collect a pension. Again, he’s retired. He had more than ample opportunity to afford the state his services while working for the state.

Last edited 2 years ago by nixit
James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

But, I think you’re wrong because thexschool supt. considered in this whole matter took his new job in another state. Presumably Pat Quinn could have dine likewise IN A DIFFERENT STATE.

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

If Pat Quinn moved to Texas and became governor, then he would cease being a retired politician, thus his IL pension would be put on hold and waiting upon his inevitable loss next election cycle. And Pat is more than welcome to collect that pension while operating his lawnmower repair business.

Last edited 2 years ago by nixit
nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

A retired politician who become a news consultant (a la Rahm) is similar to a police officer becoming a PI. Neither is a govt job. Go nuts.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Those are your standards nixit not the law or societal standards. Go nuts enforcing your made up standards.

nixit
2 years ago

Legal? Sure. Ethical? Not really. Moral? Nope. That’s societal standards. At least for 90% of the population.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

That’s what makes the law so important. Your definition of ethical and moral will be different than others. The only thing we truly have to go on is the law. So that’s really all that matters. Also, if 90% of the population agrees with you then why don’t “your” rules exists already.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

We’re in an era where ethics is a basically dead concept. I’ll leave it to you to guess the name of a recent world leader who had no ethics at all, was well known for it and yet was elected to the nation’s highest office. Go figure. Apparently a good number of people simply didn’t care when placing their vote and confidence in such a person. That’s an aside here, I admit, but it shows to go you how the values of so many people have drastically changed over the last several years at least. Having ethics as a personal… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

So you agree that it’s unethical to some degree. Finally. That was my point all along.

He is more than welcome to take advantage of collecting a pension and salary for the same job. Nothing illegal about it. But I am equally obliged to not only notice the unethical nature of this practice, but to call it out.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Ethics don’t matter and vary from one person’s standards to another anyway! All that matters in the courts is what’s legal.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

So, in your view of it your constraint only applies when a state or local public employee pensioner takes another govt. job, and he’s free to take his public retiree pension at full value when working for a private employer. I think any employer should be able to hire anyone they wish with no pension-reducing penalty attaching to the new employee. You don’t have to agree. By the way, maybe you don’t know that there is a penalty for any former govt. worker who takes private employment afterwards in that any SS benefit he accrues in that new job will… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago
Reply to  James

Worried about a GPO penalty? Then don’t retire and keep working in the public sector. No penalty there. No one compelled them to work in a state w/ that “penalty” to begin with.

You’re applying the same false logic unionistas apply to state jobs, especially pre-Janus. “Don’t want to join a union?! Then don’t work for the state.” As if the union owned the rights to that state job.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

Worried about taxes going up? Then don’t live and keep working in Illinois. No increased taxes there. No one is compelling you to continue to work and live in the state to begin with.

It works both ways.

Admin
2 years ago

Good luck paying your own pension, PPP (assuming you, too haven’t fled).

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Glennon

No luck needed Mark but your concern is noted. Good luck in your quest trying to steal retirees money. Maybe for an encore you could steal candy on halloween from little kids.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Good luck in your quest trying to steal retirees money. 
Public pensions are based and built upon fraud, so the fact is YOU PPP are the one stealing. You are getting a pass on the criminal fraud because the feds have never hauled you, the public unions and elected politicians into court on a RICO action. And they could, easily.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  nixit

My statement was true, but somehow you’ve gone off the deep end with your resoonse to it. To me its not a major impediment to any public employee retiree subsequently working under SS rules, but it is an impediment and unfair when you pay full-freight for a greatly reduced SS benefit, really an additional federal income tax being imposed in effect. For reasons unstated you went ballistic in responding. Apparently you wouldn’t mind if you were victimized that way

James
2 years ago

I agree completely. The haters do so because of envy just as so many do with anyone who has a better X, Y or Z than they do. The guy in question has a skill set in demand, sees no legal impediment against taking the offer and did so to his obvious benefit. Hoorah for him and anyone else similarly in demand who can do so legally. The rest if us need to just get over it and the negativity that results from having envy of any sort actually. Focus instead on the good things you have or could have… Read more »

ProzacPlease
2 years ago
Reply to  James

You have the arrogance to call it envy, addressing the people who actually pay for the benefits you enjoy. To use the CRT language that your unions love, it is like the slave owner accusing the slave of envy of the slave owner’s wealth. Hubris apparently knows no bounds.
A shout out to you too, PPF.

Last edited 2 years ago by ProzacPlease
Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

My landscaper has a corvette. People like me that pay for these services allow him to live a pretty great life. He traded his services for money. I have no right to judge how he spends his money nor should he need to beg me to pay him what I owe. He also doesn’t need to feel grateful. It’s a form of trade, nothing more.

ProzacPlease
2 years ago

Would you feel the same way if your landscaper hijacked the political system to write the contract that binds you to his services, forced you to pay eternally, while your yard is overgrown with weeds?
Analogies should resemble the reality of the situation, don’t you think?

Last edited 2 years ago by ProzacPlease
Jay Fled
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

If my landscaper did that to me I would move from that state and take my pension with me instead of bitchin’ about it on a blog, which is exactly what I did.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

The public pays for a PORTION of governmentsl benefits and almost literally nothing if they were ever completely funded from the start as was the intent of how they were designed. The vast majority of public employee benefits comes from the sum of contributions of the employee during his working career, the payments of active emoloyees then as well as once he retires and the investment gains from all funds in the pension system over time. The funds in deep doodoo are the ones which experienced some combination of purposeful state under-funding literally every year for many decades and the… Read more »

ProzacPlease
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The public pays almost literally nothing? So how can the pensions be so underfunded if they are funded almost entirely by employee contributions??

James
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

I described how the system was designed to work with the government levels paying paying their full actuarial share each and every year. The state government has NEVER done that even one year for over a century at this point to my knowedge of it, so its blown-up the system with consequences unintended and certainlly unpredicted by the pension systems’ planners at the outset.

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  James

To add to your point James, the actuarial required payments are currently in the 15 billion per year while the statutory payments have been under 10 billion. Most of this expense is from the debt. If pensions weren’t so underfunded then the actuarial contributions would be in the 2 to 3 billion range. This is a debt problem not a pension problem.

James
2 years ago

Well, that’s mostly my take on it, too. There are other well-known factors at play and already mentioned here from time to time in the way of pension enhancements without sufficient funding being available. But, really if you paid half of your required house mortgage for a couple of decades or all of it by taking loans elsewhere eventually you’d be hit with a huge bill you’d consider unpayable. Most would find that easy to understand and something they’d not do. Still, here the same idea applies at its core yet the responses generally seem not to get the connection… Read more »

ProzacPlease
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The legislatures and governors that did it were bought and paid for by the public sector unions. Did you think they kept distributing largesse to teachers because of the excellent results produced by our schools?
No one gets elected in this state without teacher union money.

James
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

That’s how politics works just about everywhere, isn’t it? Your task as an opponent is to find lots of people having a similar opinion, then get organized enough to do even more. If you are not so motivated you’ll have remain content howling into the winds as you are doing here.

ProzacPlease
2 years ago
Reply to  James

So your advice is that we need to organize better to prevent public sector union extortion? And you wonder why we consider you villians?

James
2 years ago
Reply to  ProzacPlease

Apparently you are fully satisfied simply to complain since you find it too bothersome or vile to put any personal effort into purposeful action. Fine. Keep complaining. I’m sure your family enjoys it.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

“…  the actuarial required payments are currently in the 15 billion per year while the statutory payments have been under 10 billion. Most of this expense is from the debt. If pensions weren’t so underfunded then the actuarial contributions would be in the 2 to 3 billion range. “ The only reason the pensions were NOT fully funded at inception is because the public employees refused to have them funded at inception, because that way they could also get HUGE raises. The HUGE RAISES the public employees received which would have never been granted had the pensions been fully funded at… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The public pays for a PORTION of governments benefits and almost literally nothing if they were ever completely funded from the start as was the intent of how they were designed.
Public employees pay 0%-10% MAX of their overall pension costs. So the public employee does indeed pay NOTHING, or “almost nothing” for their fraudulent pensions… You finally hit the target.

James
2 years ago

The part of any public employee’s paycheck that goes toward his pension often has been transferred to the employer for payment by contractual agreement! Either way its a matter of employee compensation, part of the negotiating process and more a matter of income tax consequence to the employee than the total compensation costcto the employer. Either way its paid is determined by mutually signed contractual agreement. Read over and over again those last four words until its meaning starts to sink in!

Pensions Paid First
2 years ago
Reply to  James

James, Pension pickups versus increased salary actually results in pension savings. All these people complaining about pension pick ups don’t seem to understand this concept. Someone getting paid 93k and has their employer pick up 7% of their pension cost is the equivalent of someone getting paid 99.5K without the pension pickup. The pension is calculated on their average salary, which in this case would be based on the 99.5k instead of the 93k per year. If everyone demanded an end to the pension pickups then (as you suggested) these employees would just negotiate that into their immediate salary. The… Read more »

nixit
2 years ago

Actually, that was proven to be false. The pension “savings” from a pension pickup are eaten up by increased operational expenses. It’s a net wash tax wise.

https://citizenvsmachine.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/cps-pension-pick-up-was-this-trip-really-necessary/

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

 Someone getting paid 93k and has their employer pick up 7% of their pension cost is the equivalent of someone getting paid 99.5K without the pension pickup. The pension is calculated on their average salary, which in this case would be based on the 99.5k instead of the 93k per year. 100% false, at least in CA. In CA they calculate the “pension “pick-up” into their pensionable pay out. Not only that but the employees almost always get higher COLA’s in future salary increases, to make up for the years they did not get them in lieu of/received the “pick-up”,… Read more »

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago
Reply to  James

The haters do so because of envy just as so many do with anyone who has a better X, Y or Z than they do.  LOL… I guess by your thinking we are all “envious” of people like Bernie Madoff, who stole millions from the lower and middle working classes. What a bird brain you are James. You have a multi million $$ pension because of unlawful collusion, and trust me if the Feds wanted to they could bring a civil and criminal RICO charge against the politicians and the public unions for this fraud, as they have in many… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
James
2 years ago

Your first thought is wrong. Lots of people—and I do mean LOTS—were very envious about Bernie’s wealth while he had it. Envy is a terrible sin, widespread, and its also so very easy to become ensnared by it. Now, as to your real gripe why don’t you initiate such a lawsuit? You’d have a whale of a time, don’t you think? You shouldn’t have to pay the costs alone. Surely there must be at least 20 people on Wirepoints alone that would join you, not even considering all the “Joe 6-pack” citizens who are 100% convinced that their lives suck… Read more »

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  James

“You have a multi million $$ pension because of unlawful collusion, and trust me if the Feds wanted to they could bring a civil and criminal RICO charge against the politicians and the public unions for this fraud, as they have in many cases where it is “pay to play”. Just because they haven’t doesn’t mean they couldn’t. 🙂”
comment image

James
2 years ago

Sure, don’t be a whimp about it. Please invite them in,,and let’s see how it all turns out. When its settled then we’ll have nothing to talk about here on that topic at least, a bit boring to ponder.

Stephen Douglas
2 years ago
Reply to  James

I hear Giuliani may be available. The wonder dog has been delusional for at least ten years, that I know of.

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Rex graduated #1 in his obedience class….

Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
2 years ago

Come on Monkey Boi, you know it is true!

Last edited 2 years ago by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
Bross
2 years ago

IL should provide retirements to all their citizens. Let everyone in on the same benefits. I mean let’s be fair to everyone. Isn’t that what everyone says about the rich? Let them pay their fair share! So why not let the guy who works at 7/11 in on the deal? Just introducing the idea would get the unions to freak out…

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A statewide concern: Illinois’ population decline outpaces neighboring states – Wirepoints on ABC20 Champaign

“We are not in good shape” Wirepoints’ Ted Dabrowski told ABC 20 Champaign during a segment on Illinois’ latest population losses. Illinois was one of just three states to shrink in the 2010-2020 period and has lost another 300,000 people since then. Ted says things need to change. “It’s too expensive to live here, there aren’t enough good jobs and nobody trusts the government anymore. There’s just other places to go where you can be more satisfied.”

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